[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Dead Mans Hand

Firstly I would like to say that the link posted before hand in reference to "attrocities" is almost 90% b.s.. Yes, yes blame the SS!! But the majority of those "attrocities" were commited in reprisal to attack, that's right they were provoked. Lets blame the ****s that attacked and then hid amongst civilians (partisans of all nationalities French, Russian, etc.) How is that to be delt with? When civilians carry weapons they become soldiers, when they harbor soldiers, they commit an act of war. War is hell, those who get involved cannot expect to be spared the blade.

I believe the Geneva convention had/has something to say about the legality of reprisal attacks. And while they may be tactically sound (provided your side is winning), morally they are not.

Malmedy pisses me off too. Soldiers have no right to surrender, it makes no sense. Seriously look at it, before being surrounded or running out of food/ammo/whatever these men tried to kill as many of their enemies as they possibly could. So why the hell after taking life should they be spared?? Simply, they have no right to quarter. You can't start to fight then just quit. That applies to the Germans that the Allies tortured and killed (enmasse) as well as the Allies that recieved the same poo poo treatment. How much of the 6th Army left Russia?? Units like the HitlerJugend exemplafied the concept of fighting to the death. Yes they were young, you may argue they were brainwashed, but you cannot deny their honor and courage. Nor can you deny the 101st that served in Bastogne, or the 81st Airborne, which Montgomery dropped on the 2nd SS panzer divison... (Another Brit that was overly arrogant and cost many lifes)

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with your statement that a soldier has no right to surrender or is entitled to quarter. If I'm a soldier, and an enemy soldier surrenders, I take him prisoner. Why should I shoot him? He's a non-combattant now, and while he may have fired in anger at me or my friends, my friends and I have been no kinder to him or his friends. Besides, most soldiers did not kill - some did not fire their weapons at all. Many of those who did, intentionally missed. This is a well-known phenomenon which has been seen ever since firearms became a mainstay in conventional warfare. Being social animanls, people are simply uncomfortable with taking another person's life - generally speaking.

Sure, there were battlefields where the hatred for the enemy was so great that no quarter could be expected, and likely not given. But then you had commanders such as Erwin Rommel, to whom the proper treatment of POWs was of the greatest importance.

IMHO: People demonize the SS today, because of the fear they instilled in their enemies. They took no quarter and most asked for none. They were model soldiers and to deny their bravery and ferocity is foolish. Even from the perspective that they commited crimes (aside from the Totenkopf SS which was at the camps, I'm not saying that the Holocaust didn't happen or wasn't bad.)

I think the SS are demonized because people want to hate them. Because of what some of them did, people want to hate anyone who was part of the organization. This applies to the Nazies in general as well. Because of the atrocities that the Nazies were responsible for, people want to hate anyone who had anything to do with them. There may people even today who still hate Germans in general. This is because the men who committed the atrocities were (predominately) Nazies, and the Nazies were (predominately) German. If it wasn't for the fact that most Allied nations were European, I wouldn't be surprised if the hate would extend to all of Europe as well.

And what about what Eisenhower allowed to happen in Berlin by holding Patton back???? What about the rape, murder, looting, and torture that went on in Berlin??? You seem to mind that. War is hell, so don't think I'm whinning. What happened happened because the German people surrendered to soldiers (Just like the SS were soldiers) and soldiers kill.

I think the simplest way to say it is that what happened happened, because what goes around comes around. The Germans knew they were in for it after what they had done in Russia.