[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Aren't you glorifying the Waffen-SS a little bit far too much? The Waffen-SS committed many war atrocities and sa such discredited themselves. And although they did not do the butchers job of the SS Einsatzgruppen (SS Action Groups) nor guarded the concentration and extermination camps, there can be little doubt that they would have done it without a shrug had Himmler ordered them so.

All generalizations are false, as any amount of scrutiny will reveal. There was in fact an SS officer who was praised at the Nürnberg trials (would that I remembered his name), for having refused to participate in mass murder. Believing in an ideology is one thing. Following orders to commit foul murder is a different thing entirely. There was no oath that they would strive to kill as many Jews as possible, nor was that specified in the ideology itself.

After all, the SS-Totenkopf Standarten were incorporated in a Waffen-SS division without a problem. Their 'honor' was 'loyalty', without any moral inhibitions, to a whicked political system. So they served a whicked system, not their fatherland.

They ultimately served this wicked system, yes - to the detriment of their Fatherland. However, I do believe that Germany was the main motivator for most of them - not ideology. People joined the SS for the same reason people join special forces units today - they want to be part of a fighting elite, they want to be the best of the best. And brainwashing happens now as then. I served with a Marine (Royal Norwegian) dropout, who explained that he met all the physical requirements - he just wasn't psycho enough to stay in the marines.

I also have a good friend who served in the French Foreign Legion, and he had only praise for fanatical loyalty - because a good soldier is an a-political soldier, and does not make moral decisions on his own. He's just happy to think "we deserve to win", and doesn't analyze further than that.

And can you name "some of the most brilliant commanders to ever walk this earth"? Army level, Corps level, even Division level SS Generals that really stand out in military history? I don't know any...

Michael Wittmann? A Nazi he was, but that doesn't reduce his military brilliance. "Nazi" is never the sum of a man.

Not so. The SS was part of the Nazi party structure and being SS implied being Nazi. The Waffen-SS even got Nazi indoctrination lessons.

Like I said, the reasons for joining were not necessarily (in fact, usually not) ideological ones. Many men from occupied countries also joined the SS, but for pretty much the same reason as men join the foreign legion. Adventure, proving themselves, whatever. And naturally you'd have to be partial to the German side of the conflict, but not necessarily the ideology. I remember we were also supposed to say "God save King and Country", but that didn't turn us into fanatics.

If you seriously wish to know of the some of the darkest horrors of the camps, research Doctor Mengele and other Nazi "medical" experiments. Anyone - and I do mean anyone - that can support Nazi's after that deserves to be shot.

You get to decide who deserves to be shot? Well, as long as it's one of them I suppose it's ok...

Dr. Mengele - an SS doctor - was just an exponent of the Nazi system. While not all Nazi's were like Dr. Mengele, he certainly fitted the picture of a true SS Nazi; surprisingly few of those who worked with him seem to have protested.

How was Mengele the picture of a true SS Nazi? Because he committed horrible experiments? Tell me where that's mentioned in the ideology, "thou shalt be an evil bastard". Mengele certainly was one, but that alone points neither here nor there on the political compass.


As a last note I'd like to point out that the casualty rates in POW camps in WWII occupied Norway soared at first, when they were staffed by Norwegian volunteers. As soon as the Germans took over, however, they dropped to almost nothing.