SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - View Single Post - Pastor weighing plans to burn Qurans amid U.S. warnings

Skybird · 09-10-10, 04:17 AM

Zachstar, try harder to separate your emotions from your intellect. You raise claims, but lack any references at their legal fundament. And in your country, still American laws are the fundament of the jurisdiction - not just moral outrage. That's what makes a state basing on law and order different from a theocracy.

If there would be a legal basis to stop the Quran burning by the use of US laws, everybody can safely assume that Muslim organisations by now already would have made use of them. That nobody has, is almost evidence that there are no such laws.

I don't know this pastor, and I do not care much for him - after all he is a pastor. But I see the effect that he is causing, I will not complain about this effect, and that effect is is two-fold:

1. he demonstrates the hilarious hypersensitivity and the both supremacist and narcissistic self-view of an always offended, always rightously arguing Muslim world that illustrates involuntarily and maybe even unaware how very much stuck in medieval mind-patterns it is, when this mere gesture in one small american village by this pastor makes the Ummah go into overdrive mode around the planet (once again). He also makes the West demonstrating its sick, weak, self-rejecting attitude of endlessly tolerating a given behavior if it is done by them in offence to us, but showing symptoms of the stockholm syndrom and uniting with the other if one of "us" is setting up an offence to them. This kind of weakness and constant denying of our own pride is something that makes me both sad and outraged.

2. he enforces an unpopular debate onto the US society, with the side-effect of pushing the GZ mosque higher up in the hierarchy of public debates. And not to be mistaken, the building of a monument at the scene of the crime, in the name of the ideology that motivated mass murder and justifies said mass murder in order to spread it's seed and it's message of terror, is much bigger an offence and a provoking behavior - calculated in cold blood - than is the burning of a book in the American countryside. The stabbing of Cgrisztian priests and the assassination of christian nuns in muslim countries is much bigger a crime than burning a book. The discrmination of a whole sub-community in Muslim countries, is much bigger a crime. Wars of annihilation and expulsion, genocides against Chrstian tribes and people in Africa that saw hundreds of thpusands being massacred in the past 15 years, committed by islamic armies and militias with backing of Muslims governments, is much bigger a crime than burning a book. More than 15 thousand civilians killed by Muslim bomb attacks in the world in the past 9 years, is much bigger a crime than burning a book. The governments of muslim countires not condemning these crimes and slaughterings and genicides with all detemrination and stopping to fund the animals committing it, even paying nthem and supoorting them - that is much bigger an offence to all civilised mankind than the burning of the quran could ever be.

the whole debate in public about the Quran buzrning, misses the decisive point. And that is the total absence of realsitic proportions. And it should be put into relations indeed. Than one would see how very much blown up and biased and disproportionate the debate is. It is just another opportunity to minimise the West and declare it the offender that has "offended" islam. But the real offence is that something as stupid and arrogant as islam even still exists, and it is an offence to anything that is noble and potent and creative and optimistic and reasonable in mankind. That offence began with Napoleon's landing in Egypt, and it consists of the displaying of intellectual and creative superiority of the West over an uneducated islamic sphere that since generations and centuries has stagnated and fallen back to superstitious fatalism and submissive, totalitarian conformity.

As I said some days ago, I neither consider the burning event as more than just a symbol (so I am not much interested in it), nor do I see why it is such a big issue. All what the pastor is doing, is holding a mirror up and showing islam what it's face is looking like. He does to them as they do to us all the time on incredibly bigger, more decisive scales.

On a side-note, if you are fluent in german language, the following interview. The author, Abdel-Samad, is an Egyptian-German muslim I hold in high esteem, a smart intellectual and biting critic of islam, with a high academic profile in germany, he teaches politology and works at two other universities in Germany in oriental and Jewish culture (!) studies. He's member of a government-initiated discussion platform on the matters of Islam and integration issues. He travels under police protection and although his life is in danger due to a ftawa calling for his assassination (what? another Muslim being critical of real islam and for that needing to fear of his life...??) he will travel to egypt soon to introduce his book there, too - because he managed to get it published in arabic, too, which seems to be kind of a sensation to me. I met him by chance some years ago, we chatted for five minutes or so, and found ourselves to be sharing a lot of common ground. It was a public event in a book shop - so maybe it was not for random chance alone.

http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/a...ntergehen.html

I hold him in high esteem, although I disagree with his thesis in this book, if it gets summarised correctly in the interview. His thesis is that the islamic culture has exceeded it'S banking account and thus will break apart and decline, due to it'S hollowness and meaninglessness in intellectual capacity to which it has degenerated, and that this is somewhat self-inflicted and self-deserved, since it is too narcissistic, too much lying about its own nature, and is not potent to deal with the future challenges of declining resources, whereas islam has educated people only to blind obedience to state authority and tyrannic rulers at the top (the only purpose of islamic doctrine, if you ask me: prime example illustrating this: Muhammad himself). His original words: "the islamic house stinks." This will make the Islamic societies fall, causing the biggest mass movement of a people to europe in all history. The latter is the reason why you shall not applaud the prospect of the first - getting millions and millions more of migrants who are not only unwilling but also are unable to integrate becasue they lack the cultural and educational precondition to adapt and to integrate, obviously will bring Europe into a mess, too.

I disagree with him on this, thinking that misery makes people pray and Islam needs the lacking education and social misery of the crowds and masses - the more poverty and existential misery there is, the more radical relgious ideas will fall on fertile ground. The effect of this - will be the same like in Abdel-Samad'S thesis, so the diference in opinion what causes it, is somewhat secondary only in importance. The ruling clans of the rich oil-producers have started to infiltrate Western key structures and corporations of economy and insutry anyway, by buying them completely or shares that guarantee them decisive influence over them. but maybe this separation between the elites and the masses is what Abdel-Samad means when pointing at the fall of islamic societies and their breaking-apart. The book is to be published soon.

I also would say that I think real islam cannot be reformed due to it's "monocockpit" structure. abdel-Samad argues for massive chnages in islam, and leaving the medieval and theologic ballast behind - which leaves the querstion if what then is left of islam indeed can be called islam anymore with any justification by the term'S historic meaning and reference. again, we seem to differ over this, but in the end find ourselves to be wanting the same thing nevertheless.

If oyu ever have the chance to listen to a course he gives, or a public speech, go there. I found him to be a very smart and very kind man, determined and well thought-out in argument, but always calm and polite.

P.S:
What the rave is all about:

source: Tagesspiegel

09-10-10, 04:17 AM	#136
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,665 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Zachstar, try harder to separate your emotions from your intellect. You raise claims, but lack any references at their legal fundament. And in your country, still American laws are the fundament of the jurisdiction - not just moral outrage. That's what makes a state basing on law and order different from a theocracy. If there would be a legal basis to stop the Quran burning by the use of US laws, everybody can safely assume that Muslim organisations by now already would have made use of them. That nobody has, is almost evidence that there are no such laws. I don't know this pastor, and I do not care much for him - after all he is a pastor. But I see the effect that he is causing, I will not complain about this effect, and that effect is is two-fold: 1. he demonstrates the hilarious hypersensitivity and the both supremacist and narcissistic self-view of an always offended, always rightously arguing Muslim world that illustrates involuntarily and maybe even unaware how very much stuck in medieval mind-patterns it is, when this mere gesture in one small american village by this pastor makes the Ummah go into overdrive mode around the planet (once again). He also makes the West demonstrating its sick, weak, self-rejecting attitude of endlessly tolerating a given behavior if it is done by them in offence to us, but showing symptoms of the stockholm syndrom and uniting with the other if one of "us" is setting up an offence to them. This kind of weakness and constant denying of our own pride is something that makes me both sad and outraged. 2. he enforces an unpopular debate onto the US society, with the side-effect of pushing the GZ mosque higher up in the hierarchy of public debates. And not to be mistaken, the building of a monument at the scene of the crime, in the name of the ideology that motivated mass murder and justifies said mass murder in order to spread it's seed and it's message of terror, is much bigger an offence and a provoking behavior - calculated in cold blood - than is the burning of a book in the American countryside. The stabbing of Cgrisztian priests and the assassination of christian nuns in muslim countries is much bigger a crime than burning a book. The discrmination of a whole sub-community in Muslim countries, is much bigger a crime. Wars of annihilation and expulsion, genocides against Chrstian tribes and people in Africa that saw hundreds of thpusands being massacred in the past 15 years, committed by islamic armies and militias with backing of Muslims governments, is much bigger a crime than burning a book. More than 15 thousand civilians killed by Muslim bomb attacks in the world in the past 9 years, is much bigger a crime than burning a book. The governments of muslim countires not condemning these crimes and slaughterings and genicides with all detemrination and stopping to fund the animals committing it, even paying nthem and supoorting them - that is much bigger an offence to all civilised mankind than the burning of the quran could ever be. the whole debate in public about the Quran buzrning, misses the decisive point. And that is the total absence of realsitic proportions. And it should be put into relations indeed. Than one would see how very much blown up and biased and disproportionate the debate is. It is just another opportunity to minimise the West and declare it the offender that has "offended" islam. But the real offence is that something as stupid and arrogant as islam even still exists, and it is an offence to anything that is noble and potent and creative and optimistic and reasonable in mankind. That offence began with Napoleon's landing in Egypt, and it consists of the displaying of intellectual and creative superiority of the West over an uneducated islamic sphere that since generations and centuries has stagnated and fallen back to superstitious fatalism and submissive, totalitarian conformity. As I said some days ago, I neither consider the burning event as more than just a symbol (so I am not much interested in it), nor do I see why it is such a big issue. All what the pastor is doing, is holding a mirror up and showing islam what it's face is looking like. He does to them as they do to us all the time on incredibly bigger, more decisive scales. On a side-note, if you are fluent in german language, the following interview. The author, Abdel-Samad, is an Egyptian-German muslim I hold in high esteem, a smart intellectual and biting critic of islam, with a high academic profile in germany, he teaches politology and works at two other universities in Germany in oriental and Jewish culture (!) studies. He's member of a government-initiated discussion platform on the matters of Islam and integration issues. He travels under police protection and although his life is in danger due to a ftawa calling for his assassination (what? another Muslim being critical of real islam and for that needing to fear of his life...??) he will travel to egypt soon to introduce his book there, too - because he managed to get it published in arabic, too, which seems to be kind of a sensation to me. I met him by chance some years ago, we chatted for five minutes or so, and found ourselves to be sharing a lot of common ground. It was a public event in a book shop - so maybe it was not for random chance alone. http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/a...ntergehen.html I hold him in high esteem, although I disagree with his thesis in this book, if it gets summarised correctly in the interview. His thesis is that the islamic culture has exceeded it'S banking account and thus will break apart and decline, due to it'S hollowness and meaninglessness in intellectual capacity to which it has degenerated, and that this is somewhat self-inflicted and self-deserved, since it is too narcissistic, too much lying about its own nature, and is not potent to deal with the future challenges of declining resources, whereas islam has educated people only to blind obedience to state authority and tyrannic rulers at the top (the only purpose of islamic doctrine, if you ask me: prime example illustrating this: Muhammad himself). His original words: "the islamic house stinks." This will make the Islamic societies fall, causing the biggest mass movement of a people to europe in all history. The latter is the reason why you shall not applaud the prospect of the first - getting millions and millions more of migrants who are not only unwilling but also are unable to integrate becasue they lack the cultural and educational precondition to adapt and to integrate, obviously will bring Europe into a mess, too. I disagree with him on this, thinking that misery makes people pray and Islam needs the lacking education and social misery of the crowds and masses - the more poverty and existential misery there is, the more radical relgious ideas will fall on fertile ground. The effect of this - will be the same like in Abdel-Samad'S thesis, so the diference in opinion what causes it, is somewhat secondary only in importance. The ruling clans of the rich oil-producers have started to infiltrate Western key structures and corporations of economy and insutry anyway, by buying them completely or shares that guarantee them decisive influence over them. but maybe this separation between the elites and the masses is what Abdel-Samad means when pointing at the fall of islamic societies and their breaking-apart. The book is to be published soon. I also would say that I think real islam cannot be reformed due to it's "monocockpit" structure. abdel-Samad argues for massive chnages in islam, and leaving the medieval and theologic ballast behind - which leaves the querstion if what then is left of islam indeed can be called islam anymore with any justification by the term'S historic meaning and reference. again, we seem to differ over this, but in the end find ourselves to be wanting the same thing nevertheless. If oyu ever have the chance to listen to a course he gives, or a public speech, go there. I found him to be a very smart and very kind man, determined and well thought-out in argument, but always calm and polite. P.S: What the rave is all about: source: Tagesspiegel __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 09-10-10 at 05:20 AM.