[Castout]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

The thing there is, as soon as we can explain and understand it, the supernatural ceases to be supernatural and reverts to being natural

Supernatural and natural are just words . . .and there are many level of understanding . . . and if you ask why to everything that man claims to have understood the final answer would be they don't know that yet.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Then, despite your "EXACTLY", you missed my point entirely.

HOW do you know God exists? There is no evidence one way or the other. Things may just be what they are, and not have had any help at all. What you "know" is only what you believe. As I said, believing it doesn't make it so.

It's very hard to answer single points in a run-on sentence, so I divided the following up as best I could.

Why exactly is that a safe bet. It's only true if there really is a God, and so far the only evidence you've shown is the fact that you believe it. That is all you really "know". If it can't be shown with facts and evidence, then it is nothing more than belief, and belief is not proof.


That is certainly true, if the initial assumption is true. But again, there is no direct evidence for the existence of God, so your argument is all built on faith, not fact.


Again you miss the important fact that we don't know if everthing was created out of nothing or not. All we "know" is what we see. Everything else is guesswork. The universe may have been created by God, or it may just "be". We don't know.

Don't take this to mean I deny God's existence. That would require me to believe that there is no God, and I don't. The only thing I know for certain on the subject is that I don't know. And the only thing I believe is that no one else knows either.

And if someone does actually know, I wish they'd show me the proof.

I never claimed to be able to show anyone proof of God. And I don't mean to argue either. As to the question to how do I know God exists? Well I saw God. I asked to be shown God and there was given what I asked 18 years ago. Of course this is not a public proof but it was enough of a personal proof to ME alone.

That's just one of the PERSONAL proof that I have of God. I never claim to have a proof of God that applies to everyone nor able to prove it.

I don't mean to offend anyone or ague for the sake of arguing and not much a debate that I can present. . . . . .I just want to make a testimony that I know God exists and no it's not a mere belief. And I'm not the only one obviously then now or ever.

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Well, first of all I wouldn't say "everything" is created out of "nothing". Some things were created out of some other things, and some more things out of the last things etc. etc.

Sure but like what I wrote essentially everything must have been created out of nothing in the beginning but Sailor Steve argued that we could not even say that because we don't know anything about what was really in the beginning as there could already be something in the beginning, a something or many something or many everything which has always existed even before the creation of this 3 dimensional universe. Then I think we need to investigate how those something or many everything came into being in the first place before because if they had a beginning that beginning might point to the time of creation of everything . . . .

Originally Posted by DarkFish

If you want a Ferrari, why wait 4.6 billion years to create it?

umm I must assume that you didn't really mean Ferrari

Why not?! You certainly not assuming that there's a problem of creating a universe which is taking so much of mankind standard years?

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Why make a Ferrari with many design flaws that breaks down after x years?

Why not if that had been the plan all along?
Or why not even if that had been the best that whatever the creator could create?

Obviously any physicist would tell us that the universe is not going to last forever, at least the one which we are currently seeing with live stars and all. Physicists could present theory of the end of universe existence but nothing more than that. The end may be as puzzling as the beginning but we do know the the universe capability to sustain life at least our kind of being diminishes as it progresses in time hence it seems that ability to sustain life forever was never the characteristic of this universe

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Why create billions of other Ferrari's floating out of reach of you somewhere in space?

Unless logic fails me the distance would be to create barrier to make them exactly that, out of reach, at least until mankind develop their capabilities further. And stars are becoming more distant as time goes by. So we better hurry up

And I don't know if there were Ferraris in space either is there much use and anything enjoyable for us out there that's not here already?

Originally Posted by DarkFish

So your Ferrari analogy can just as easily be used to counter the claim that god exists.

Actually I was using that Ferrari to make comparison with the life that we are so blessed to enjoy.

A heart that's capable of feeling.....tongue which make the acts of nourishing ourselves a pleasure which is important to give us incentive to preserve ourselves

Or the sun which conveniently placed to give us the optimum heat that would not endanger life.

Or the beautiful nature that compels millions of tourist looking for a refreshing get away to enjoy a scenic holiday be it the sea, the mountain, the lake or the country side.

Life could be much more depressing if all nature had been an ugly piece of ****.

But they do not and they are even beautiful and joyful to be enjoyed.
Sure there might be the occasional hurricane, earthquake but life on this planet is very much enjoyable is it not. What I'm trying to say that the planet is convenient for thriving living population.

when you look at the mirror this morning do you like what you are seeing? When you breathe do you not like the air that you breathe in?

Do you not enjoy your life?


And did you work on those things?

No? then your life as much as mine is a gift! And if you said those things happened by themselves the way we enjoy living and just being then . . .WHAT A COINCIDENCE!