[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

In my opinion, individuals are responsible for their own actions or inactions, and looking at religion is pretty much a waste of time. for every muslim you know that has caused problems -- oh wait, let me correct that -- for every muslim you claim you know and claim to have caused problems, i know a muslim that hasn't.

What about that police report here from Germany that makes it clear that Muslim males are over proportionally violent and criminal than ANY other ethnicity in Germany? That is not just a random claim but empirical proven.

actually, most people i know, muslim or otherwise, blame others for their own failure. just look at your own countries recent history -- if we use your mode of thinking, we'd hold all germans responsible for the actions of a few. but we don't, do we? do you?

Would you have held them responsible while they entered your country and started behaving like the "master race"?

secondly, i think it's pretty hilarious that you use W Churchill to make your arguments -- the last of the great colonialists. why don't you quote what he had to say about germany, too?

Well, what's wrong with his views on Islam?

Originally Posted by Winston

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

What's wrong with that? Even here in Germany a lot of Muslims are treating their wives like their property. Of course not all of them do, but it is definitely not a rare occasion here.

Originally Posted by Winston

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

What was the last technological improvement that was made by a Muslim nation that has not just been copied? (I'm really curious about that one as I know of none but that doesn't mean that there really haven't been a few, so if you know of something important I really would like to know).

Originally Posted by Winston

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

Again, what's wrong with it? Did Islam spread quickly and often by force? I think it did. Would it have stopped before taking over Europe without being repelled militarily? I don't think so.

well, like you said, it's history, and most people i know accept that. but you don't. why don't you put your hypercritical eye on the things other cultures have done? or would that mean there would need to be some self-criticism? i mean, look at what your "superior" culture has done in the last 100+ years, let alone in 500 years ago.

No, it's not history unfortunately. It's still going on. Sometimes using force (like Sudan) and sometimes by demographic change ( like in Europe).
I really don't get why some people always insist on playing the "But your culture did that too" card. Yes, we conquered, we murdered, we suppressed. Does that mean we should allow everyone on this planet to do the very same BS too? I don't understand the logic in that.

anyway, i don't particularly want to get in another argument with you -- we've gone over this again and again in the past -- i just want to know why, just for personal enlightenment, why do islam and immigrants rub you the wrong way so badly?

Well, this wasn't directed at me but maybe you are interested in my version as well.
I don't see the Islamic culture as on par with our values and our constitution. I simply don't like it to have 4 million people here with a faith that is proven to spawn more criminals than any other group here, that keeps demanding more and more and who's leaders have more or less openly declared war on our culture. I feel invaded. I usually don't count myself to the right wing (I've no problems with most foreigners here and have some non German friends as well) but with Islam I really see a threat to our nation (and Europe as a whole). We have almost no benefit from having them here but a lot of disadvantages (criminals, social welfare recipients). The average Muslim here performs way worse than immigrants from ANY other ethnicity.
Why should I be glad that they are here?

*cross post with Skybird*