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Catfish · 06-21-10, 05:01 AM

Hello,
re Cohaagen

" ... Those poor Germans - always getting stabbed in the back! ..."

Now that you say it - yes there must be a reason "we" always lose "our" wars. One other point may be this firm belief in phantastic complicated machinery that is as brilliant as it is militarily pointless (ahem).
But it is neither "we" or "mine", nor "yours", there is almost no person left of the "Central powers" or "The Entente" of the time.

That said i really could not let the first post go uncommented, this is why i was a bit polemic in my answering. Just because the first post is this prayer mill-like quoting of the british and later US propaganda departments without taking any other opinion into account, along with recently discovered information.
It's probably good to remind what happened historically ("lest we forget") so i did not want to "shoot" at Shamuboy1, at least not personally. Indeed this is a good idea. I also do like heated arguments sometimes, but it does not help understanding history if not done with some historian's distance.

A lot of log books of german U-boat commanders of WW1 have only recently been made available to the public, along with major portions of the british admiralty's archives that have been locked away for 100 years, and which rests will only appear publicly in 2018, if ever. There is also a good chance that it will be just destroyed. This is no conspiracy theory, it is done. It might also reveal more details that could blame even more atrocities and guilt on Germany, who knows.

I base my claims posted above on several english and german books, on a recent BBC documentary, on Churchill's memoirs, at Fisher's and Asquith's biographies, notes and speeches, on Whyttle's biography on Kaiser William 2nd, and John Roehl's biography on the same, but also on propaganda texts of the time, along with reports of survivors. The last book i read about WW1 and the U-boat war was "The U-boats of the Kaiser", which is unfortunately german and might thus destroy its credibility in your eyes.

But before you accuse me of calling this propaganda and telling bullsh!t, please inform yourself of the propaganda departments, and their influence or better control on the media of the time, also on "independent" publishers who still write this stuff into some schoolbooks of today.
Good keywords are the "rape" of Belgium, the "bayonnetting of belgian babies" and the "crucification of canadian officers". As soon as "they" rape women, kill children, and especially torture and kill clerical people (those monks being hanged on laterns, bound to chuch bells and rung to death) one should instantly become very careful, and think about which purpose those stories serve. Using such paraphrases is and has always been used to dehumanize an enemy and make own good soldiers kill bad others without mercy.

As well please do not confuse WW1 and WW2, neither the political systems nor the conduct of naval warfare, nor anyone's objectives of the time. No Nazis or Doenitz in WW1.
I do not say that Germany violating Belgium's neutrality was an excuse for England to enforce its own objectives, but the question should be allowed, if it would have developed in a world war without England's declaration of war. Maybe even then.

Will come to the single points in my next post, but i'm currently not at home and really should do quite some other stuff

Greetings,
Catfish

06-21-10, 05:01 AM	#2
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,773 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hello, re Cohaagen " ... Those poor Germans - always getting stabbed in the back! ..." Now that you say it - yes there must be a reason "we" always lose "our" wars. One other point may be this firm belief in phantastic complicated machinery that is as brilliant as it is militarily pointless (ahem). But it is neither "we" or "mine", nor "yours", there is almost no person left of the "Central powers" or "The Entente" of the time. That said i really could not let the first post go uncommented, this is why i was a bit polemic in my answering. Just because the first post is this prayer mill-like quoting of the british and later US propaganda departments without taking any other opinion into account, along with recently discovered information. It's probably good to remind what happened historically ("lest we forget") so i did not want to "shoot" at Shamuboy1, at least not personally. Indeed this is a good idea. I also do like heated arguments sometimes, but it does not help understanding history if not done with some historian's distance. A lot of log books of german U-boat commanders of WW1 have only recently been made available to the public, along with major portions of the british admiralty's archives that have been locked away for 100 years, and which rests will only appear publicly in 2018, if ever. There is also a good chance that it will be just destroyed. This is no conspiracy theory, it is done. It might also reveal more details that could blame even more atrocities and guilt on Germany, who knows. I base my claims posted above on several english and german books, on a recent BBC documentary, on Churchill's memoirs, at Fisher's and Asquith's biographies, notes and speeches, on Whyttle's biography on Kaiser William 2nd, and John Roehl's biography on the same, but also on propaganda texts of the time, along with reports of survivors. The last book i read about WW1 and the U-boat war was "The U-boats of the Kaiser", which is unfortunately german and might thus destroy its credibility in your eyes. But before you accuse me of calling this propaganda and telling bullsh!t, please inform yourself of the propaganda departments, and their influence or better control on the media of the time, also on "independent" publishers who still write this stuff into some schoolbooks of today. Good keywords are the "rape" of Belgium, the "bayonnetting of belgian babies" and the "crucification of canadian officers". As soon as "they" rape women, kill children, and especially torture and kill clerical people (those monks being hanged on laterns, bound to chuch bells and rung to death) one should instantly become very careful, and think about which purpose those stories serve. Using such paraphrases is and has always been used to dehumanize an enemy and make own good soldiers kill bad others without mercy. As well please do not confuse WW1 and WW2, neither the political systems nor the conduct of naval warfare, nor anyone's objectives of the time. No Nazis or Doenitz in WW1. I do not say that Germany violating Belgium's neutrality was an excuse for England to enforce its own objectives, but the question should be allowed, if it would have developed in a world war without England's declaration of war. Maybe even then. Will come to the single points in my next post, but i'm currently not at home and really should do quite some other stuff Greetings, Catfish