[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

if the Americans were so set on promoting freedom in the world then they should've acted when the nazi star was still in ascent. Throughout the 30's the Americans were very silent and yes, even collaborated with the nazis and helped their warmachine get on it's feet. In the US the German American Bund was very popular having rallies in, among other places, the packed Madison Square Garden. Only with Pearl Harbor and acts of aggression against the US by the nazis did US get fully into the war and then they delayed the opening up of the second front until very late in the war.

The United States decided very early on to avoid 'entanglements' with European powers. One of our earliest internal battles was between Secretary Of State Thomas Jefferson and Secretary Of The Treasury Alexander Hamilton over the latest war between the British and the French. Jefferson and his Republicans were afraid of siding with the British because the Revolution was still fresh in their minds. Hamilton and his Federalists were afraid of siding with the French because this new Revolutionary government was not the same one that had helped us during our revolution, and in fact had murdered the king who did help us.

This cause a lot of hostility between the two parties, including calling each other 'Anglomen' and 'Francomen'. The end result is that America has always been reluctant to get involved in European politics. This was true in our delayed entry into World War One as well.

But we aren't perfect, not by a long shot. Vietnam showed that quite plainly.

Also during the reign of Soviet Union the US was pretty happy to divide the resources with the Soviets and not really challenge their grip on Europe. Proxy wars in the third world don't look like the acts of the vanguard of freedom but rather the continuation of the age old rule of the colonialists. And this was the role that the US tried and is still trying to grasp, the role of the colonial master in the third world given up by the Europeans.

And there are Americans who feel exactly the same way, which is another thing that sets us apart. You aren't bringing up anything that hasn't been argued here for years. Are we being colonialists, or aren't we. We don't know ourselves, but at least we keep the discussion open.

Too bad the US is constantly getting it's ass handed to it by small poor developing nations.

And that's another misconception on your part and ours. It happens not because we are beaten, but because we play too nice. Britain lost India because they were polite and friendly with the people they subjugated. If Russia or Germany had controlled India Ghandi would have been a bug stain the first time he spoke up. The Brits put up with that sort of thing.

And so do we. We 'lost' in Vietnam because half of us were convinced we shouldn't have been there in the first place. We made up 'rules' and then we played by them. "Don't bomb here." "Don't go there." We could have easily wiped out any North Vietnamese resistance, but we refused to bomb Hanoi, and we refused to slaughter civilians wholesale like some countries would have. We could have dominated the whole country easily, but we didn't want to end up in a war with the Russians and the Chinese, who were supporting North Vietnam. We also had the problem that if we had won, what would we do with it? We would have forced ourselves into the position of dominating a people thousands of miles away who didn't want us there. Control of that type has never been our aim. We got involved because we thought we were helping the good South Vietnamese against the evil North Vietnamese. We got uninvolved because we realized we were wrong.

Now to Iraq. We didn't "get our ass handed to us". We stomped the Iraqi army into the ground and won easily in a matter of weeks. Ever since then we've had to face the fact that we're trying to police a country against a secret army which is willing to blow up their own people just to make a point, and it's looking more and more like it may just be impossible.

And you haven't answered heartc's question of what the world would have looked like if there was no America.

It's easy to hate, and it's easy to find fault. On some subjects you seem very reasonable. When America and Israel crop up you seem to do nothing but attack and spit venom. There is no discussing those subjects with you - just fighting and hatred.