[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

For Jim

the question: if imagining you are unable to find work and for some reason have not a penny in your pocket anymore - would you really be ready to suffer serious pain, or starve yourself to death just to not break the law? You made it sound very resolute what you said - but I question it nevertheless. that you said you saw criminal careers emerging from the offenders not being punished when they started it, should not be forgotten or minimised, not at all - but it is a completely different issue.

All I know is that I would feel ashamed if I would steal, but I also know that I would try to steal if I am in a really bad situation and hunger is driving me. I also would steal to ease the hunger of somebody with me whom I love. Does that make me an immoral man? I don't think so.

And some of us - nobody should be sure of his answer before he actually has been in that situation - maybe would even do worse things, if the situation they are in only is desperate enough.

There are lazy ones, there are stupid ones, there are parasites. But there are also those who lost everything without it being their mistake, or due to the deeds of others, and fate beating them up beyond their breaking point. If somebody seriously believes that every man, no matter his place and origin, always is the architect of his own fortune, and always has the chance to forge his own destiny - then he cannot have seen too much of the possible diversity of life. and let'S not forget that we all do not get thrown into this world with the same share of skills and strengths and starting chances. We do not have all the same chances. And some of us got so little positives when being born that in that corner of the world where we land that simply is not enough existential capital to escape that situation. that is true inside our own first world-countries, that is true in other countries, and the second and third world.

Not wanting to appear lazy or trying to reinvent the wheel, but Haplo's post (below) but in the location/welfare provision context of the UK is pretty much how I would have responded

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

First of all, I am appalled at a fellow man of the cloth even making it appear as if he condones an act specifically prohibited by his own religion. As a catholic minister, "thou shalt not steal" is considered the 7th of the 10 Commandments (where for protestants it is #8). Any pastor or priest must always remember to consider how he puts forth the teachings he is led to give.

Secondly, there is no moral justification in the civilization we exist in, to steal. Now I will qualify that with the statement that I base that on the level of civilization found in the States and Europe generally. At least, in the US, any person who is lacking the absolute necessities can find help if they can swallow their pride. A homeless person freezing on the street need only to go to a local shelter, or even stop a cop, to be taken to a place where sustenance and warmth are provided. It simply isn't chosen by some, out of a sense of pride and stubborness. If you go to a homeless shelter - they will let you know that you can't spit on the other residents, must conform to some basic rules, etc. Nothing onerous, but to some the mere thought of they "aren't allowed" is unthinkable. Let em freeze then I say - because stupidity kills and that is nature's way. If your poor and can't get food, there is a social net that you can use. However, you can't sit on it forever. I think the limit is something like 3 years of food stamps before you have to get a job or be cut off? I could be wrong on that, but its something like that.

Now, in third world countries where there is no infrastructure, I would say your looking at a case by case basis. But in a civilized society, there is no cause for it - because there are morally acceptable other options.