[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by RoaldLarsen

And the debate continues...

I didn't mean to start it up again. My intention in referencing Campbell was to show where the GWX changing of everything to HE came from. In fact Campbell's wording is vague, but at the time I originally brought it up it was what I had. When I read the later capture reports I was surprised, but not overly so. It's obvious that the captain had some leeway in the loadout he carried.

For me it is an open question whether there was a SAP ammunition that was distinct from the AP ammunition. I have certainly seen reference to both, but I am not certain that I have seen reference to both in the same document. It is possible that both terms were applied to the same ammunition. However, I do have the impression that the AP was solid shot, while the SAP had a small base-fused explosive charge.

That I do know a bit more about, from my experience with years of research for my own naval tabletop miniatures game.

When the British commissioned the Majestic class battleships in 1893, the loadout cosisted of "Armour-piercing solid shot, Armour-piercing shell, Semi-armour-piercing common, and dummy rounds", with no High explosive. The problem at that time was that no one was sure that an AP shell would even work. By the First World War the AP solid shot was gone, the loadout was mostly AP shell, along with some Common and HE. Common was for use against unarmored targets and HE was meant for shore bombardment.

Destroyer guns of the period had Common rounds and nothing else, and carried the wonderfully awkward designation of SAPCBC (Semi-Armour-Piercing Capped British Common).

In World War Two the famous US dual-purpose 5"/38 carried no HE, but a Common type called HC, for High-Capacity, which was designed to pierce the roof of a small concrete bunker, along with AA rounds, which was why they were 'dual-purpose'.

My copies are all in storage, so I can't give you specific issue numbers, but most of this comes from various issues of Conway's Warship magazine and the Amercan Warship International, including articles on the Majestic class battleships and HMS Bulwark, of the London class. They also contain Campbell's series 'British Naval Guns: 1880-1945.'

Another source I love is also by Campbell: Jutland - An Analysis Of The Fighting. It contains a shot-by-shot description of the battle - who fired what type of shell, where it hit and damage done. The best part is the information that one British battleship (I think it was Hercules) was loaded for a bombardment mission and went into the battle with nothing but HE!

I had understood that the distinction between the terms "AP" and "SAP" was design-based, not performance based. I can see little reason for the game to model these two types of ammunitions separately.

As I said, there is a big difference but I'm pretty sure that nobody ever made a true AP round for any gun smaller than 6", so your judgement stands. M. J. Whitley, in his book German Destroyers of World War Two, says that the actual German terms stood for 'Nose-fused HE' and 'Base-Fused HE', so I don't know if the German 'AP' (or 'SAP') round was actually capped at all, but rather was just an HE round with a base-mounted fuse to delay the explosion to guarantee full penetration of an unarmored hull before going off.

There is greater certainty that the incendiary was distinct from the HE. There are individual records indicating the use of both types of ammunition by a single gun in a single engagement. The damage model employed by the game would seem to give no reason for the game to model both types separately.

Probably true, but I'm not familiar with how the game models work so I'm not in a position to argue one way or the other.

The lack of a high maximum gun elevation did limit the usefulness of AA deck gun ammunition, but remember that most aircraft tended to attack submarines from a low altitude. U-boats are known to have engaged aircraft with their deck gun using AA ammunition.

Also true. The only story I heard of a u-boat shooting down a plane using its deck gun didn't say whether they even used an AA round. Pretty funny if they did it with a standard round!