[Skybird]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

My words clearly fell on deaf ears. What do the Muslims in Muslim countries have to do with the secularisation of Muslims in western countries?

Another urban myth: that Wetsern culture has the opower and infoluence to make musloims becoming althogether as secular as you claim.But that is a claim that statistics already have proven wrong. In Germany for example we find the third generation immigrants to be much more orthodox in there religious views than there parents and grandparents ever have been, further boosted by massive Turkish nationaoism and a majority of the young peoplpe not older than 25 saying they do not want to be German. nationaolism and relgious orthodoxy - good mixture. Go on dreaming abiout secularisation of islam. That only shows you have no feeling and understanding of the power inherent to the Quran's ideology. It is also just a eurocratic dream.

Europe is old, overaged, has grown weak, it's times of ruling are over, it's economy gets czhallenged, it's values get pushed back in the world and replaced by restrengthening feelings of local clture's identity and customs. How could anyone assume that this sick old man the West has become has the power and cinvincing argument to tame a vital, drastcially boosting ideology of conquest that is brimming with life and is carried by the currently very young populations in the muslim countries? and are you maybe, by chnace , familiar with the model of Gunnar Heihnsohn, being called "Youth Bulge" , saying there is a link between the average age of the male population in a society, and the expansive drive of that culture? The according book would be "Söhne und Weltmacht. Terror im Aufstieg und Fall der Nationen."

Secular islam is a contradiction in itself. To assume the West is still as convincing and shiny to make islamic ideology change itself, is absurd. statistics show that the young turn orhtodox instead of secular, and that they strongly reject integration and becoming part of their hosting nation's idedntity. that'S why they want to turn the hosting nation islamic.

and I have often had it that right this was told me right into my face, both in Germany, and other countries.

"Inside information" from your friends in Frankfurt and Berlin? Books on ideology? You just don't get it do you?

Feedback from professional social workers about their experience with having to deal with immigrants and the young fsamioy members is worth much more than a book or an official statistics. I know these guys from university times, since I studied psychology back then and had some courses in sociology as well. they stayed in that propfession, I left. If that is a problem for you, I'm sorry.

I am at least glad to hear you can look past your own BS long enough to form friendships with some Muslim people.

Lacking mouth size does not seem to be your problem. Let me give you some details on myself. I am 42, and was becoming interested in Islam short after school. Two of my four best friends from schooldays were a Christian Armenian and a Muslim Turk, both families very well integrated, and educated. My first real friendship with a comrade I experienced at the age of 5, and he was a Turkish boy and Islam yes or no did not concern our minds back then. After school I started to massively read and educate myself on islam, and inhaled a whole lot of literature about, around 30-35 books, some of which academic standard works, and this reading included the Quran and parts of the currently existing Hadith texts and secondary literature on Sharia as well as books on sociology, politology, history. Do I have all that details always avaialable on my mind? No. what I have available is the general picture from that input. Back then I had not started travelling, and when starting to read all that stuff I was a young man very similiar in opinion to you now and to many other wishful thinkers that sometimes defend Islam and talk of how misunderstood it just is. That led to conflict: I was influenced by the leftist pro-Islamic propaganda and was thinking friendly of Islam, and saw that in contradiction to most of what I read about Islam in the academic books. Even greater my confusion became when I started to visit and stay in several Islamic countries: Algeria, Egypt, Syria, Turkey and Iran both having been major stations, and a short stay in Pakistani-Afghan border region. That all in all were around 15 months, and some travels were private with an Algerian buddy and another friend ( the young fools travel in disreghard of risks and fight it easy...), but I also was there for having been engaged by a Belgian-British correspondent team, for security. that was in the mid-90s, roughly. when I was back, europe felt alien, and my confusion was complete. I could not bring together my former image of Islam with what I had seen in Islamic countries, and what I had seen in ideology supremacism especially in Turkey. Iran was a bag of mixed experiences, but all in all this was the best station in my programs, I met both very orthodox, radical people, and very educated, tolerant, burgeois-like people. As an atheist I soon learned to hide that in Islamic countries, but in iran it was the smallest problem for people. This all is the reason why I am very split on Iran over the nuclear issues. I am determined not to allow them nuclear wepaons even at the cost of destroying the whole country, but I also feel that would be very tragic, becasue I hold not only bad but also good memories of that place. Somehow I like Iran. well, parts of it.

You see, my confusion resulted from my wishful thinking colliding with reality, and academic information. It took me two or three years to get that sorted out, and it cintunued with debates on this board some years ago. when I let go my wishful thiniiung, the contradictions solved themslves and all the previously "contradictive" informations fell into place. so you see, i know the thing from sides, I now how it feels to be in defense of Islam, but I also know how misled that thinking is and I know why I have come to that uncompromised confronting attitude of mine today.

All this, i admit althiugh it may sound arrogant, gives me the feeling my attitude today is a bit better reasoned than just referring to one or two close friends of mine.

As for the death threats... wow. Out of all the Muslims I know and have known in my life, I've never once received a death threat, nor has anyone I know for that matter. Interesting that you have.

Hard to say whether it was for somebody having found a way to learn my identity from internet, or because it was due to my role in a local civil movement that prevented a mosque building by betrayal at court. That I also have engaged and finally scared away Muslim infomation stands in the pedestrian zone by raising public attention with counter arguments to their candy-sweet propaganda, may have contributed to some Muslims learning to hate me. revealing is th erole of the german police. they looked at the letters and told me that I better shut up about the issue if I do not want to be interrogated by the BKA on my assumed Nazi background. Which is my fourth of five totally disappointing experiences with the German justice system. That'S why I do not put trust into it anymore.

I hate Nazis and confront them as uncompromised as I do with Islam.

You pulled that whole paragraph right out of your arse. It demonstrates only one thing: that you have pigeonholed my comments based on your perception of me as a person, probably without so much as a second thought. Presumably you will now go back to preaching your anti-Islam BS, as unaware as ever of your striking resemblance to the extremists you find so concerning?

You are such a nice cutie, have you ever been told?

Unfortunately I started to reply without having read all your reply in full first, else I would have kicked you where you belong when choosing a rude tone like this: the waste bin.

My concern is not some extremists. My concern is the islamic ideology by content, which is extreme in itself, and people like you trying to minimise that and try to rewrite it's very basics although they are existing reality throughout the Muslim world.