Quote:
Originally Posted by August
You can't separate the two in my opinion.
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I cannot agree with that statement. They must be separate otherwise one cannot learn from or appreciate much of anything; all human works are created by flawed human beings.
Take for example art. Some of the greatest artists who ever lived were wretched, awful persons themselves. It's one of the great ironies of life that some of the best ideas and works ever created, were created by some of the most horrible people you can imagine.
It is the product that matters most, not the person who created it. If you do not separate author and product, then your view becomes compromised by your own biases and you cannot properly form rational opinions about the product.
This next little bit is directed at Tribesman. This is not a personal attack, more just my observations with a few gentle suggestions.
You strike me as a person of good intelligence and that you come bearing some knowledge. Yet your posts do not tend to convey that message very often. The biggest problem from my view, is that you approach posting here with a condescending, self superior attitude. You are quick to ridicule those that disagree with you, yet you do not tend to offer much in solid counter argument to refute what they say.
As a result you do not receive much respect from the more established and skillful debaters here, since you offer little respect to them. I think that if you approached posting with a more respectful tone, and with more rational forms of argumentation, that you would receive much more respect back in turn, and be held in higher regard.
The choice however is up to you, just don't be too surprised if your posts start getting ignored or are systematically dissected and summarily refuted if you continue this way. Yes you are intelligent and knowledgeable, but there are others here who are more so, so don't wax to much in the glory of your own ego.
@Lance
I wasn't aware that you regularly disagreed with me
. I've always felt that in basic terms you and I desire similar end results, but we don't quite agree on the best way to reach those results. My aim is to find the best balance in things, to achieve the greatest good for all, and with the greatest fairness possible for all. As such I do not consider myself neither left nor right, but see value in some of the concepts from both sides. I do realize though that I can appear to have leftist leanings here, but mostly because I am counterbalancing against what i see as being a rightist majority (I'll happily rip into socialism and communism as anything else).
At any rate I have always enjoyed your posts and hold you in high regard as well. Even if we do not always see eye to eye, you do present your arguments very well and I respect that.
Back to the topic... I have to admit that I am also getting very very uneasy about Islam. I try very hard to be fair and open minded, but it is hard to be so with regards to a society and religion that is neither fair nor open minded. They are going to take over in the end if things continue, not by changing and converting us, but by colonizing and out breeding us. Once they have majority in a country, that country will be forced into submission to Islam (as has already been going on in Africa and east asia). I see war over this looming in the horizon, assuming the west has not entirely lost its will to get into a real and bloody fight. Something it hasn't had much stomach for since Korea.