SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - View Single Post - Sonalysts World Cup

OKO · 08-03-05, 01:27 AM

Hi all

here is a long post, and I hope you will read it to the end, and comment it, with good spirit and good arguments.
thank you in advance.

about auto crew

when the work is just to plot a contact, there is no interest at all to need to always stay in the front of the station to be sure you don't miss THE important new track.
This is why there is crew aboard ships and not only a commander ....
ESM, RADAR, Active intercept and CM have excellent autocrew, and figure exactly what they are supposed to do as crew.

So I recommand the use of AC :
- Surface CM
- Surface EW
(surface already have radar AC ...)
- Helo CM
- Helo MAD/ESM
- Helo radar
- Air ESM
- Air Radar
- Air CM

no more and not less AC

The need to stay in the front of a station JUST to clic on a new track represent strictly NO interest at all, for gameplay neither for realism.

It's just inacceptable you've been hit by a missile because you didn't had EW alert, because you were on another station at the wrong time, when, on a real ship, there will be ALWAYS someone at this station.
It's also inacceptable the need to stay on your radar to refresh contact position where, here again, there is ALWAYS an operator in the real thing (and AC are not as strong as player to find faint contact here, one more reason to let AC radar ON ...).

Same for CM, in case of alert, you could have lots of thing to do, and if you are 1 or even 2 in a plateform, you won't have the desired time to engage security procedures and to do the rest of the work.

thats why AC is justified and needed for radar, EW/ESM/MAD, and CM.
Without them, plateform are just sitting duck to incoming danger, when they are not in the real life.

concerning the TMA AC, I disagree

Where do you built your situation awarness ?

How do you choose your position your speed and your course ?

When do you decide to engage ?

How do you do your tactical manoeuver ?

you do all of this depending on the information you received and you analysed from the battlefield
If you let the AI doing all the job here, this simulation just become a press button. No hesitation, no error, the AC TMA will do all for you and will show you everything accuratly
.
Instead to use your brain, you just need to look at the screen.
Gameplay, fun, level of the fight just decrease a lot using AC TMA on sub (I will talk about AC TMA frigate just after), and ... kill 90% of the game interest, ESPECIALLY on a tournament with crew and MS !

I know there is lots of people who never use manual TMA, and think it's a very complicated story. It is just not.
I never used the AC TMA from the first day of SC, and I'm not a mathematician, neither scientist or naval crew.
I learned alone and trained enought people to know it's REALLY not difficult to understand and to explain how to use TMA
In fact, the more important thing in DW is to put your ship in good listening position during the LOB acquisition process, and the TMA become REALLY cool and easy to do, with only 3 clean LOB on merged contact with SSN, and 6 clean LOB on a single track on any sub.
ALWAYS less than 5% of error in both case.
clean LOB mean LOB acquired in good condition (no vector change -neither up/down or left/right) on your sub, and speed ABOVE 7 knts WITHOUT speed change for TMA with towed array.
that's all you have to do to make a perfect TMA (and the one of DW is near perfection)

If you have 3 to 5 people in a team, you MUST HAVE at least one of them able to use manual TMA on sub (... that is the most complicated one, frigate TMA is EASIER, I develop after).

So I really believe using AC TMA in a tournament with crew will just pull the level, and the interest, down.

I just come back to the frigate TMA.
What does it stand for ?
MAIN thing is just to .... merge contact !
95% of the job at the frigate TMA is just to merge contact
when do you make a TMA here so ?
using EW, towed array and sometimes active sonar
do you often use EW TMA ? no, because if you have an EW track, you are supposed to have a radar contact, and to MERGE them.
I explain => remember one thing : the AC TMA of the fregate is a cheat
look at the range of the TMA plot : it's just 25000 yards in the max range
So how could the AC TMA give you a so accurate TMA on an EW contact at 20 miles ? You can say cheating, because you just CAN'T do it yourself to this range ... it's just impossible because ... it's out of the plotting table !!!
Now the TMA on the Towed Array LOB : same thing, you just couldn't do the same manually over 12 miles, when the AI could do it sometimes twice the distance on a loud contact.
doing a TMA on TA with fregate is exactly the same as for sub, with smaller range capabilities, but no more simple or difficult (depending on the target path ...) than in a sub.
So, I personnaly near NEVER use the frigate TMA to analyse a target path (except with active sonar where it is just trivial and very easy to use ... putting the ruler on the top of the active bearing lines, child's work)
The TMA of the fregate is the tool to make your screen clear, to merge all from the same contact coming from different sensor.
Thats why it's a station who need very FEW and occasionnal work.
no need to AC at all here.

To resume, we (mille sabords team) worked from the first day of the release (and me from the first day of the beta test) on the excellent and exhaustive selection of autocrew and multiplayer options.
There is lots of options to have a nice learning curve, even on MP, and that's great ... at start
But we finally found, some months ago now, once everyone has some experience, the way to make the game the more realistic and interesting possible, to limit overload of work without killing the brain work, and we stand now with the same options for some month, just because our games are on top with this.

here is the complete choice =>

everything locked by the host except :

- All radar AC
- All EW/ESM/MAD AC
- All CM AC

- also "show link data" free (you could want to hide them and there is no reason you couldn't do this)

- also "disable 3D" free (it's just your solution here and not the reality) but some will say it could be a cheat ... a really very little cheat in fact ... I don't want to argue without contradictor, but I could argue with one

)

- also enable winds/current/waveriding

- allow engage with menu disable and locked by host, to be a bit more realistic (and I'm not really sure it works anyway ... just a detail here)

- and, of course, disable multiplayers options during game

I can say each time we changed these setting we were coming back to this again, just because it's the best way to configure MP settings.
I really think a tournament with crew should also use these settings, for the interest and the quality of games.

I must say this kind of thing is VERY important to consider for an international tournament, and could just botch up the pleasure and the interest of games ...
Of course, I'm not here to say you must do this or that, but I can assure you the best game you could have is just with the setting I mentionned above.

Maybe we can deal without the radar/EW/CM AC, even if I don't agree for above reasons.
Mille sabords could be very interested in your tournament.
But with AC TMA, I just can say you won't see us at all (even if you don't wait for us of course) just because we could have more interesting games on our side.
So I personnally really hope you will change your mind about it, and hope my blabla will let you think about it.

Because I'd like to join you.

08-03-05, 01:27 AM	#11
OKO Commander Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Solar system, mainly on earth Posts: 476 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	Hi all here is a long post, and I hope you will read it to the end, and comment it, with good spirit and good arguments. thank you in advance. about auto crew when the work is just to plot a contact, there is no interest at all to need to always stay in the front of the station to be sure you don't miss THE important new track. This is why there is crew aboard ships and not only a commander .... ESM, RADAR, Active intercept and CM have excellent autocrew, and figure exactly what they are supposed to do as crew. So I recommand the use of AC : - Surface CM - Surface EW (surface already have radar AC ...) - Helo CM - Helo MAD/ESM - Helo radar - Air ESM - Air Radar - Air CM no more and not less AC The need to stay in the front of a station JUST to clic on a new track represent strictly NO interest at all, for gameplay neither for realism. It's just inacceptable you've been hit by a missile because you didn't had EW alert, because you were on another station at the wrong time, when, on a real ship, there will be ALWAYS someone at this station. It's also inacceptable the need to stay on your radar to refresh contact position where, here again, there is ALWAYS an operator in the real thing (and AC are not as strong as player to find faint contact here, one more reason to let AC radar ON ...). Same for CM, in case of alert, you could have lots of thing to do, and if you are 1 or even 2 in a plateform, you won't have the desired time to engage security procedures and to do the rest of the work. thats why AC is justified and needed for radar, EW/ESM/MAD, and CM. Without them, plateform are just sitting duck to incoming danger, when they are not in the real life. concerning the TMA AC, I disagree Where do you built your situation awarness ? How do you choose your position your speed and your course ? When do you decide to engage ? How do you do your tactical manoeuver ? you do all of this depending on the information you received and you analysed from the battlefield If you let the AI doing all the job here, this simulation just become a press button. No hesitation, no error, the AC TMA will do all for you and will show you everything accuratly . Instead to use your brain, you just need to look at the screen. Gameplay, fun, level of the fight just decrease a lot using AC TMA on sub (I will talk about AC TMA frigate just after), and ... kill 90% of the game interest, ESPECIALLY on a tournament with crew and MS ! I know there is lots of people who never use manual TMA, and think it's a very complicated story. It is just not. I never used the AC TMA from the first day of SC, and I'm not a mathematician, neither scientist or naval crew. I learned alone and trained enought people to know it's REALLY not difficult to understand and to explain how to use TMA In fact, the more important thing in DW is to put your ship in good listening position during the LOB acquisition process, and the TMA become REALLY cool and easy to do, with only 3 clean LOB on merged contact with SSN, and 6 clean LOB on a single track on any sub. ALWAYS less than 5% of error in both case. clean LOB mean LOB acquired in good condition (no vector change -neither up/down or left/right) on your sub, and speed ABOVE 7 knts WITHOUT speed change for TMA with towed array. that's all you have to do to make a perfect TMA (and the one of DW is near perfection) If you have 3 to 5 people in a team, you MUST HAVE at least one of them able to use manual TMA on sub (... that is the most complicated one, frigate TMA is EASIER, I develop after). So I really believe using AC TMA in a tournament with crew will just pull the level, and the interest, down. I just come back to the frigate TMA. What does it stand for ? MAIN thing is just to .... merge contact ! 95% of the job at the frigate TMA is just to merge contact when do you make a TMA here so ? using EW, towed array and sometimes active sonar do you often use EW TMA ? no, because if you have an EW track, you are supposed to have a radar contact, and to MERGE them. I explain => remember one thing : the AC TMA of the fregate is a cheat look at the range of the TMA plot : it's just 25000 yards in the max range So how could the AC TMA give you a so accurate TMA on an EW contact at 20 miles ? You can say cheating, because you just CAN'T do it yourself to this range ... it's just impossible because ... it's out of the plotting table !!! Now the TMA on the Towed Array LOB : same thing, you just couldn't do the same manually over 12 miles, when the AI could do it sometimes twice the distance on a loud contact. doing a TMA on TA with fregate is exactly the same as for sub, with smaller range capabilities, but no more simple or difficult (depending on the target path ...) than in a sub. So, I personnaly near NEVER use the frigate TMA to analyse a target path (except with active sonar where it is just trivial and very easy to use ... putting the ruler on the top of the active bearing lines, child's work) The TMA of the fregate is the tool to make your screen clear, to merge all from the same contact coming from different sensor. Thats why it's a station who need very FEW and occasionnal work. no need to AC at all here. To resume, we (mille sabords team) worked from the first day of the release (and me from the first day of the beta test) on the excellent and exhaustive selection of autocrew and multiplayer options. There is lots of options to have a nice learning curve, even on MP, and that's great ... at start But we finally found, some months ago now, once everyone has some experience, the way to make the game the more realistic and interesting possible, to limit overload of work without killing the brain work, and we stand now with the same options for some month, just because our games are on top with this. here is the complete choice => everything locked by the host except : - All radar AC - All EW/ESM/MAD AC - All CM AC - also "show link data" free (you could want to hide them and there is no reason you couldn't do this) - also "disable 3D" free (it's just your solution here and not the reality) but some will say it could be a cheat ... a really very little cheat in fact ... I don't want to argue without contradictor, but I could argue with one ) - also enable winds/current/waveriding - allow engage with menu disable and locked by host, to be a bit more realistic (and I'm not really sure it works anyway ... just a detail here) - and, of course, disable multiplayers options during game I can say each time we changed these setting we were coming back to this again, just because it's the best way to configure MP settings. I really think a tournament with crew should also use these settings, for the interest and the quality of games. I must say this kind of thing is VERY important to consider for an international tournament, and could just botch up the pleasure and the interest of games ... Of course, I'm not here to say you must do this or that, but I can assure you the best game you could have is just with the setting I mentionned above. Maybe we can deal without the radar/EW/CM AC, even if I don't agree for above reasons. Mille sabords could be very interested in your tournament. But with AC TMA, I just can say you won't see us at all (even if you don't wait for us of course) just because we could have more interesting games on our side. So I personnally really hope you will change your mind about it, and hope my blabla will let you think about it. Because I'd like to join you.