[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by August

We're not going to have good diplomatic relations with a nation that denies the holocaust, threatens Israel with destruction, funds and trains terrorist groups and is actively trying to build a nuke.

Oh please. Ahmadinejad and the clergy deny the Holocaust; but they are not the people- and their views differ from the people's, so as far as representation is concerned, they do not speak for the people. The citizens of Iran are forced to live in a theocratic government when they would have it to be secular in nature if they ever had the power to make it so. And they did at one time. But not now.

Nobody threated Israel with destruction. Not even Ahmadinejad- where that rumor stems from. He said it must "vanish from the pages of time". That's a Qur'an prophecy about how the end of days will come about, not any more different from the Bible's; it's not a declaration of war.

"Funds and trains terrorist groups"? What evidence do you have of this? I've heard plenty of people claim that they are, mostly the same people who claimed that Iraq had WMDs and was supporting terrorist groups. But did they ever confirm any of these allegations? No, they didn't. As far as reality is concerned, they were all bulls***.

Listen, groups like Al-Qaeda don't need anyone to give them weapons, money, and ammunition. You and the Europeans gave them plenty of that when they were unified in the Mujahideen against the invading Sovets; so did the Saudis. Back then, you called them "freedom fighters". Now, you call them terrorists. So which is it?

And yes, I do have a citation for my claim that they received funding from you, financially and equipment wise:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1670089.stm

Originally Posted by August

I didn't say he was dishonest.

I didn't say he was either; I said that a person who does scrutinize him for trying cannot be doing it for much more of a reason than because of dishonest bias. If he tries and succeeds, then he accomplished what he set out to do. Otherwise, nothing is lost or gained.

Originally Posted by August

I said he was a fool for negotiating with the Mullahs that run your country and he is.

Why? Why is he a fool? Because he's trying? I'm not calling him a genius, but I'm not calling him a fool either. Why can't you simply say you don't know what the outcome will be to the talks? Why can't you admit that we'll all just have to wait and see what happens before we can draw any kind of fair judgements?

Originally Posted by August

You said it changed our government style completely. It didn't. We had a President, a two house Congress, a judicial branch before, during and after the war.

The 13th, 14th, and 15th Constitutional Amendments abolish slavery, give equal protection under the law, and allow blacks to vote- respectively. The Republican Party takes control in Congress and passes the Morrill Tariff, Morrill Act, Homestead Act, National Banking Act of 1864, and approves construction of the transcontinental railroad. The planter "aristocracy" concept in citizenship is destroyed, industrialization undergoes radical advances in both production and sophistication, and the states that joined with the CSA lost billions in finances impacting the economy on a whole.

The 13th through 15th Amendments alone changed the "fundamental laws" of the country and government principles as a result. The Homestead Act changed for a time how property was owned and managed nation-wide until the 1980s. I don't think I need to clarify on the business effects of the Morrill Tariff, National Banking Act, or transcontinental railroad's construction. Putting it briefly, Representative Morrill's tariff allowed the Union to raise required funds during the Civil War, the National Banking Act of 1864 marked one of the first lasting bank regulation charters in the country's history, and the transcontinental railroad allowed for the faster transportation of raw materials, workers, and products for industries.

Originally Posted by August

Then you say "Millions died, millions more were wounded" when you know that's a huge exaggeration. A little over 600k died and about 400k were wounded.

Actually 700,000 died, either from battle or disease (that's counting the 40,000 dead from black units and 5,000 dead from Indian units, as well as civilian casualties; this isn't wounded casualties, mind you). You're getting that from military casualties alone, aren't you? As in- the blue and the grey on the battlefield. Anyway, about 650,000 were wounded (not counting black and Indian units), 200,000 of which died later either from disease or the severity of their injuries (such as stress on the body or surgical complications). So that brings your total to 900,000. According to Union records, 50,840 soldiers died as a result of side accidents. That breaks down to be 25,000 prisoners, 5,000 drownings, 5,000 general accidents (construction, misfires, falls, etc.), 520 murders, 400 suicides, 315 sunstrokes/heatstrokes, 270 military executions, 105 killed after being captured by the Confederates, 70 military executions by the Confederates, and 14,160 are listed simply as "unclassified". I don't know what that refers to, but that doesn't really matter. So your total breaks down to be 950,840 dead, 650,000 wounded- of which 200,000 died so roughly 450,000 were wounded and lived on. The Confederate casualties are estimated, however, by Burke Davis (this stuff is all from his book "Strange and Fascinating Facts" about the war; link below). This is also omitting the roughly 20,000 dead at Andersonville Prison. They didn't keep very good records, even about army strength. Davis speculates that their dead may have pushed up to 325,000 and Union dead may have gone up to 425,000 to 430,000- that's just from battle losses and disease related to the effects of the battles, which would take it just past the 1,000,000 mark considering all the other stuff he's mentioned. Whether or not his estimation is correct or not- I don't know. Personally I wouldn't doubt it, figuring up things like naval losses and Confederate POW camp losses it certainly doesn't seem impossible, or injuries Confederates and civilians suffered. I mean the SS Sultana's explosion alone killed like... what- 2,000 people? Including civilians? About 500 others had third-degree burns. And speaking of civilians, how many people were killed in the Kansas slavery and territory disputes- or by Confederate freelancers like Quantrill? I'd also like to find out how many of the foreigners who went to fight for the Confederates were killed.

Burke Davis' book: http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Stra.../dp/0517371510

Originally Posted by August

If you're knowledge of the post vietnam era is as flawed as your knowledge of the civil war you might want to re-examine the basis for your arguments.

I was about to suggest the same.

Originally Posted by August

Or maybe somebody trying to score political points for the opposition put it there.

I'm pretty sure I put it there.

Originally Posted by August

Now you can infer all you want SH but the point is we don't know and you can't consider your theories to be "fact" and certainly not representative of the Tea party movement.

Never was considering them as fact. Stated that several times already. Just tossing out food for thought on it and my two cents.

Originally Posted by August

Right, "frantically" seven hours after you posted. That's because i'm just hanging upon your every word...

The time between postings is irrelevant. How much time you took to find and look over sources is all that matters here. And apparently, you didn't take very long at all- because they were both talking about the exact same thing, not separate events.

Why golly-gee, I'm flattered that you are.

Originally Posted by August

Well I thought I was frowning on it.

Yep, wasn't disputing that.

Originally Posted by August

The only one that mentions jail is you. Must be that guilty conscience talking...

Far from it actually. But I chuckled all the same. Simply pointing out that advocation of a "vigilante murder" is fine and good and perfectly legal; it's just the vigilante that's going to jail for doing something illegal; i.e. performing the murder.