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Shadow9216 · 07-26-05, 07:26 AM

Okay folks. Can't we all just get along? :P

Wulfmann, I tried to respond to you last night but my modem failed so I went to bed. I wanted to thank you for your rational response to my post. It shows you are not only capable of dispassionate discussion (although I never doubted that), but that you are willing to engage in such a dialogue.

It's interesting that you have a quote from undoubtedly one of the most heated debates in history in your sig block. I'd like to ask all parties to this debate to pause for a moment and think about how we're handling ourselves in this debate.

If I may, let me summarize a few of the key issues:

1) It is alleged that X1 appropriated derivative works for commercial gain without prior approval
2) A grass-roots movement calling for a ban on X1 has been called for, prior to any "official" pronouncement of guilt
3) Proponents and opponents of the ban are at an impasse, and the situation has turned ugly

As to the first contention:
There are at least 3 mods whose origination can be identified/attributed, especially as they are included as stand-alone "options" (ie not an inherent part of the "new" mod)

a) Map Contact
b) Bearing Overlay
c) Plotting Tool

The modders in question are Pato, Observer and (IIRC) Cloudbait.

I submit that if X1 and/or any of these gentlemen (ladies?) were respond that they have/gave permission to use these works, then the claim of theft would be disproven. Contrarily, if X1 is unable/unwilling to provide such evidence AND any of the modders in question responds that they did NOT give such permission, then the claim of misappropriation would stand. Note that I say "AND"- X1's silence can not be used against them. At this point, although I do not believe they are innocent, I wouldn't blame them for refusing to comment- they may even be barred from comment due to legal proceedings. At any rate, the 5th Ammendment to the US Constitution provides the right to avoid self-incrimination ("You have the right to remain silent"). Silence in this case may not be inferred to indicate guilt. As I am an American, I will afford X1 this protection.

(As an aside, I did see Observer post that he did not give permission. That's one of the three.)

Now to the 2nd contention, the proposed ban on X1 products. This has provoked much controversy. Is such a ban appropriate? Is it legal? Is it ethical?

If contention #1, misappropriation of works, is proven then some response is suitable- in this case, a refusal to purchase the material would be about the ONLY avenue open to the general community. Therefore the ban in and of itself appears to be an acceptable result.

The timing, though, seems to be the linchpin to the debate (note, I didn't spell it "lynchpin"). Wulfmann indicates he is willing to join the ban WHEN it has been proven to his satisfaction that contention 1 is true. Wulfmann, I would ask you to supply the criteria under which this may occur.

Let the record show I am NOT in the employ of X1, nor am I working for Wulfmann. I would like to see this forum return to the cohesive unit it once was. Wulfmann is afraid of a "mob mentality", so I'm trying to impose some order and establish guidelines for rational discourse- please excuse my presumption.

Finally, contention #3, the impasse. Wulfmann's seeming intransigence has provoked some into claiming he works for "the enemy". He in turn has resorted to some unpleasant labelling. Each side is fulfilling the worst fears of the other, and now we are joined by Deathping, who may or may not in fact be X1.

Can we agree that, this debate aside, Wulfmann has been a positive member of this community? That he has contributed on several occasions? If so, then let's back off a little bit. Wulfmann, I ask you, too, to throttle back a little and remind us that you are a part of the team that is the Subsim forum and the SH3 community.

Folks, this is the first online forum I've been a member of. It's been great, I love the experience. Let's remember the common ground that brought us all together and use that to determine our course. Let's not let emotion and passion fragment us, and turn us against one another.

Apologies to all for another long-winded post. Hopefully you're all too exhausted from reading it to continue fighting.

07-26-05, 07:26 AM	#154
Shadow9216 Frogman Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 296 Downloads: 91 Uploads: 0	Okay folks. Can't we all just get along? :P Wulfmann, I tried to respond to you last night but my modem failed so I went to bed. I wanted to thank you for your rational response to my post. It shows you are not only capable of dispassionate discussion (although I never doubted that), but that you are willing to engage in such a dialogue. It's interesting that you have a quote from undoubtedly one of the most heated debates in history in your sig block. I'd like to ask all parties to this debate to pause for a moment and think about how we're handling ourselves in this debate. If I may, let me summarize a few of the key issues: 1) It is alleged that X1 appropriated derivative works for commercial gain without prior approval 2) A grass-roots movement calling for a ban on X1 has been called for, prior to any "official" pronouncement of guilt 3) Proponents and opponents of the ban are at an impasse, and the situation has turned ugly As to the first contention: There are at least 3 mods whose origination can be identified/attributed, especially as they are included as stand-alone "options" (ie not an inherent part of the "new" mod) a) Map Contact b) Bearing Overlay c) Plotting Tool The modders in question are Pato, Observer and (IIRC) Cloudbait. I submit that if X1 and/or any of these gentlemen (ladies?) were respond that they have/gave permission to use these works, then the claim of theft would be disproven. Contrarily, if X1 is unable/unwilling to provide such evidence AND any of the modders in question responds that they did NOT give such permission, then the claim of misappropriation would stand. Note that I say "AND"- X1's silence can not be used against them. At this point, although I do not believe they are innocent, I wouldn't blame them for refusing to comment- they may even be barred from comment due to legal proceedings. At any rate, the 5th Ammendment to the US Constitution provides the right to avoid self-incrimination ("You have the right to remain silent"). Silence in this case may not be inferred to indicate guilt. As I am an American, I will afford X1 this protection. (As an aside, I did see Observer post that he did not give permission. That's one of the three.) Now to the 2nd contention, the proposed ban on X1 products. This has provoked much controversy. Is such a ban appropriate? Is it legal? Is it ethical? If contention #1, misappropriation of works, is proven then some response is suitable- in this case, a refusal to purchase the material would be about the ONLY avenue open to the general community. Therefore the ban in and of itself appears to be an acceptable result. The timing, though, seems to be the linchpin to the debate (note, I didn't spell it "lynchpin"). Wulfmann indicates he is willing to join the ban WHEN it has been proven to his satisfaction that contention 1 is true. Wulfmann, I would ask you to supply the criteria under which this may occur. Let the record show I am NOT in the employ of X1, nor am I working for Wulfmann. I would like to see this forum return to the cohesive unit it once was. Wulfmann is afraid of a "mob mentality", so I'm trying to impose some order and establish guidelines for rational discourse- please excuse my presumption. Finally, contention #3, the impasse. Wulfmann's seeming intransigence has provoked some into claiming he works for "the enemy". He in turn has resorted to some unpleasant labelling. Each side is fulfilling the worst fears of the other, and now we are joined by Deathping, who may or may not in fact be X1. Can we agree that, this debate aside, Wulfmann has been a positive member of this community? That he has contributed on several occasions? If so, then let's back off a little bit. Wulfmann, I ask you, too, to throttle back a little and remind us that you are a part of the team that is the Subsim forum and the SH3 community. Folks, this is the first online forum I've been a member of. It's been great, I love the experience. Let's remember the common ground that brought us all together and use that to determine our course. Let's not let emotion and passion fragment us, and turn us against one another. Apologies to all for another long-winded post. Hopefully you're all too exhausted from reading it to continue fighting.