Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird
Thats the NATO arrogance I mean. Russia must back down. Russia must agree to this. Russia must do that. Russia should shut up if NATO does what it wants. Russia should not complain if NATO does not stand by it'S promises, and have betrayed the Russians big time several times since 1989. Russia should believe all the lies it has been told in the past 20 years, and should act to it's own disadvantage.
No wonder that they are so very much pissed. I wonder that they kept their patience for so long.
NATO has to back down in the Caucasean region, and regarding Ukraine as well. Both are not it's damn business. And to demand the russians to damage themselves and act against their vital interests, is utmost hypocritical.
What country is next after Georgia to enter NATO? Looking on the map, Iran, maybe? Hell, that brings up the thought if maybe Natonising Georgia is not about Georgia at all, but containing Iran...? Anyhow, with Georgia you already have entered the orient, and left Europe behind. Quite some distance ot the north Atlantic. Afghanistan next? We could try to establish a cordon of NATO countries around China as well, while we are at it. Tiflis is closer to the Chinese region of Xinjiang Uygur Zizhiqu than it is to NATO headquarters in Brussels.
Some things any nation could not accept if being serious about strategical key interests. It is so very much silly to provoke Russia over the Caucasean region, and risking conflicts when there is nothing to gain that is worth the risk. You could as well imagine Mexico to become a strong associate of the Russians and being turned into a military base to dam the US's influence to the south. It would be nuts, irresponsible, arrogant and ignorant of reality. The diplomatic price that is to be payed for this constant attempt to become dominant in the Caucasean region is much, much too high for NATO, and especially the US, they need Russia'S good will on a whole list of much more important issues. The conflict in the Caucasean has consequences for all the southern-south-western ex-provinces of the former USSR, and Russia cannot afford to show weakness in these if it does not want to get pushed back by revolts and demographic processes there. The Islamic question also plays a role.
Leave it to the Russians and wish them good luck and be thankful if they can manage to maintain stability there. Help them by isoltating Shaakashvili, and forcing him to give up power and politics. Hell, I even accept to assassinate him, for their are more important things at stake than just this gangaster's personal life. having stable conditions in the Caucasean region and the spouthern ex-provinces is so very much more important than repeating social-political experiment that already have failed in the Balkanese pressure cooker, namely Bosnia and in Kosovo, and are now just breeding the next outburst of hostilities there, due to having artifical constructions that simply do not match with ethnic, historic and cultural realities on the ground. That's what forms failed states, and in this case they are hanging on the drip of EU-organised European tax-payers. Thank you very much for headlessly wasting even just the small tax-share that also me is forced to contribute to it, Brussel.
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Help Russia? what? maybe we should start helping Iran terrorizing their surrounding areas as well, yes?
Reality check, big time. Russia != western style democracy based on human rights. Don't pull a Schröder here. These guys play their own power gambles on the backs of both NATO and their surrounding Nations. And now you come catering them on the basis of chauvisnism and nationalism? You clearly don't understand the concepts of human rights, Skybird. If you want and support nationalistic "realpolitik" based on a very shady concept of a "sphere of influence", you automaticly give those up.
Also, you should be very, very careful with your appliance of the word arrogance. NATO is not moving towards these countries, telling them "hey, you wanne join us?". These countries make that move first, and no country has the right to interfere with this descision. What is Arrogance? Is Nato arrogant by answering a call, or Is Russia arrogant by denying souvereign nations what they consider beeing in their national insterest, especially considering Russias past and how this country treated it's neighbours and vasalle states? Do I have to remind you of the millions of dead cuased by Russia? Is Russia excused and it's neighbours at fault for their suspiciouns here? Russia could very well join NATO itself if it feels threatend. It does not do so because Russia has superpower ambitions of itself and has no interest in joining the principles upon which NATO was founded. That is no excuse to bully other nations, neither by the Russians themselves nor naybody juping to their defense.
I have no idea what gives you the idea Russia deserves any respectful treatment unless they actually prove their worth in resolving international issues and their fair treatment of it's neighbours. If that is arrogant, then it's also arrogant to expect criminals to change their ways and stop beating up people just because they have a big stick. Just because its a big country with nukes I see "zero" reason to leave their surrounding countries to their fate for Russia to do whatever they want with them. And with your stances, it's no wonder much more important countries like Poland grow ever more weary of Germany and it's hypocritic stances.
But the argument that NATO broke promises is reason enough for you to give Russia a free hand to do and demand whatever it wants in eastern Europe and Asia, do I understand you right, yes?
Give me one, only one logical reason without compromising our principles that speaks for supporting Russia "against" other countires, some of them way more respectable then Russia will ever be. We are not here to play soft on bullies just because it's more convinient or because Russia could feel oh so "offended".