SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - View Single Post - U-864 is finally being raised!

Dan D · 01-29-09, 05:47 PM

An interesting question here is::
who in fact will pay for the salvage costs and for the costs resulting from possible damage to the maritime environment?

There was a similar case with U 859:

"On 23 September U-859 was running on the surface, within 23 mi (37 km) of Penang and the end of her voyage, when she was intercepted in the Malacca Straits by HMS Trenchant. In difficult conditions with a heavy swell running and a second U-boat thought to be lurking, Trenchant's commander Arthur Hezlet carried out a snap attack using his stern torpedo tubes, hitting U-859 amidships. The U-boat sank immediately in 50 m (160 ft) of water with several compartments flooded, and 47 men drowned, including her commander.
Twenty of the crew did manage to escape however, opening the hatch in the relatively shallow sea and struggling to the calm surface. Eleven of the survivors were picked up by HMS Trenchant immediately following the sinking, and the remaining 9 were picked up by the Japanese after being adrift for 24 hours and were taken ashore to await repatriation.[4]
Salvage
In 1972 a total of 12 tons of mercury were recovered from the U-859 and brought into Singapore. The West German Embassy claimed ownership of the mercury. The Receiver of Wreck took possession of the mercury, and the High Court of Singapore [English law school] ruled that "the German state has never ceased to exist despite Germany's unconditional surrender in 1945 and whatever was the property of the German State, unless it was captured and taken away by one of the Allied Powers, still remains the property of the German State..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-859#cite_note-4

Given that the Federal Republic of Germany is the legal successor of the German Reich (prevailing international opinion) and that there is the rule that the property of warships „is only lost by capture during battle (before sinking)... or by any express act of abandonment“, the u-boat and the mercury is property of Germany.

Consequence would be that Germany as the flag state has the duty to remove the wreck, if the wreck causes damage to the environment. If Germany fails to do so, Norway could remove the wreck as a reprisal and could claim damage afterwards.

Also, whoever wants to lift the wreck of the German Graf Spee in Uruguay better asks for Germany's approval because it is Germany's property. The US e.g. asked Germany first, before the US Navy defused the weapons of U 352 which had been sunk off the coast of North Carolina in 1942.

Anyway, I think it is unlikely that Germany will tough it out to be the owner of the mercury in the case of the U-864.

01-29-09, 05:47 PM	#15
Dan D Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: 9th Flotilla Posts: 839 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	An interesting question here is:: who in fact will pay for the salvage costs and for the costs resulting from possible damage to the maritime environment? There was a similar case with U 859: "On 23 September U-859 was running on the surface, within 23 mi (37 km) of Penang and the end of her voyage, when she was intercepted in the Malacca Straits by HMS Trenchant. In difficult conditions with a heavy swell running and a second U-boat thought to be lurking, Trenchant's commander Arthur Hezlet carried out a snap attack using his stern torpedo tubes, hitting U-859 amidships. The U-boat sank immediately in 50 m (160 ft) of water with several compartments flooded, and 47 men drowned, including her commander. Twenty of the crew did manage to escape however, opening the hatch in the relatively shallow sea and struggling to the calm surface. Eleven of the survivors were picked up by HMS Trenchant immediately following the sinking, and the remaining 9 were picked up by the Japanese after being adrift for 24 hours and were taken ashore to await repatriation.[4] Salvage In 1972 a total of 12 tons of mercury were recovered from the U-859 and brought into Singapore. The West German Embassy claimed ownership of the mercury. The Receiver of Wreck took possession of the mercury, and the High Court of Singapore [English law school] ruled that "the German state has never ceased to exist despite Germany's unconditional surrender in 1945 and whatever was the property of the German State, unless it was captured and taken away by one of the Allied Powers, still remains the property of the German State..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-859#cite_note-4 Given that the Federal Republic of Germany is the legal successor of the German Reich (prevailing international opinion) and that there is the rule that the property of warships „is only lost by capture during battle (before sinking)... or by any express act of abandonment“, the u-boat and the mercury is property of Germany. Consequence would be that Germany as the flag state has the duty to remove the wreck, if the wreck causes damage to the environment. If Germany fails to do so, Norway could remove the wreck as a reprisal and could claim damage afterwards. Also, whoever wants to lift the wreck of the German Graf Spee in Uruguay better asks for Germany's approval because it is Germany's property. The US e.g. asked Germany first, before the US Navy defused the weapons of U 352 which had been sunk off the coast of North Carolina in 1942. Anyway, I think it is unlikely that Germany will tough it out to be the owner of the mercury in the case of the U-864.