My List of SH4 Features
 

Gameplay
-ability to manually adjust front and rear dive planes
-more manual control over ballast (ability to manual rotate valves)
-ship supplies, rations, diminish the longer you are at sea...forces you to dock at ports to get more food for crew
-functioning anchor
-breakdowns...downtime to replace parts, tuneups (to increase efficiency of engines every so often)
-ability to dump fuel or jettison an artificial debris field
-ability to simulate boardings for resupply or intellegence gathering (like you would dock at (shipname) and then based on a percentage and time of war it would give you a list of items or prisoners you recovered. These would then be traded at end of mission for more reown or skill points)
-a boarding crew that is setup like damage/repair crew box but, during a board a certain amount can get injured or die (boarding is activated when next to a enemy ship...will ask would you like to board your party yes/no when click yes it calculates results based on crew fatigue, wounded, etc or just random success or fail...with casualty report)
-real working milk cows
-no death screen
-death by sinking, drowning, or imploding beyond crush depth limits...no death by hull integrity 10% at 20 meters, etc...should just sink in shallow areas...not implode
-visual damage on the uboat models
-thermal layers
-reduction of hull integrity causes leaks...the less the hull integrity value the more the leaks....the deeper you go the more the leaks....leaks can overwhelm the pumps....and cause flooding...this restricts how deep you can go and/or how long you can stay down at a deeper depth....eventually you will have to climb to a shallower depth to slow down the leak rate
-leaks cause flooding if pumps dont work
-pumps can fail and be repaired at various locations throughout ship

Campaign Improvements
-dynamic campaign that can be played in both single player and multiplayer modes so friends can join and help you out with your campaign
-more available realistic missions: airmen rescue missions, ship demolition by boarding parties, cloak and dagger ops, minelaying, beacon missions for amphibious landings, and chariot recovery, recon: photos of ports, docked ships, mine locations, other enemy assets, patrol behaviors.
-ability to choose campaign or theatre of operations (these can come in form of addons or expansion packs)

Multiplayer
-ability to receive and transmit messages in multiplayer to other friends on uboats (wolfpacks)

Commands/Orders
-ability to scuttle the ship to prevent capture
-ability to abandon ship to save crew
-ability to surrender
-secure compartments (all hatches closed)
-man overboard (ordered to get chance to recover someone that gets washed off deck)

General Compartments
-full compartments to explore and interact with (torpedo room, sleeping quarters, mess, head)
-functioning lights-ability to manually turn sections of ship on and off or change coloration for different running modes. amount of lights drain battery during use
-repair party seen in 3-d view working on the part of ship you put them in
-more breakable equipment with ability to check status and work on
-periscope animation inside compartment...you click on periscope you want to use you see it rise and can tell if it is up or down by looking at 3-d representation)
-opening and closing hatches
-compartment flooding in 3-d view
-functional bilge pumps in different locations that you can check.
-compressor that you can hear running on surface

Radio Room Improvements
-real uboat engagement orders and laws to follow through different parts of war (only attack on surface, signal must be given, lifeboats must leave safely, boats must be armed, etc)
-functioning enigma machine....encoded messages
-Ability to request more options from headquarters (aerial recon, distress, resupply, etc)
-Ability to ask for replacements for specialists that die (mechanic, sonarman, navigator, etc)

Captain's Quarters
-captains logbook or reference library that can be modded or expanded...html format liek the pilot logbook in fs9

Watch Officer/Deck
-ability to use a sextant or use watch officer to find location for navigation only while surfaced on clear day or night....gives a genral location not specific...error grows the longer you are submerged or in bad weather.
-Small percentage of probability of watch crew member or members being lost overboard during rough weather.
-ability to hoist flags
-ability to signal ships through signal light or flags
-ability to have noone on deck when on surface
-uboat spotlight to identify flags at night

Engine Room
-ability to check oil levels add new oil or have oil leaks and different effects to engine from it
-animated engine

Mess
-inventory of amount of food onboard
-shows how many days left of food
-adjust how much is rationed...full, half, quarter....the less the food the weaker and higher the chance of crew getting sick
-food is perishable based on climate (a certain amount of waste of food rotting occurs the warmer the waters the faster this process occurs)

Crew Management
-chance of crew getting sick at sea...can spread to other crew members if not treated by medic
-high co2 levels cause crew to work less efficiently...longer repair times, reaction to orders, etc...
-if 02 depletes or c02 is in danger levels crew die in a trickling effect not all at once
-talented crew (crew characters have more individual features...you may get a engine mechanic that is more talented than another despite his ability to get better....same goes for helmsmen, torpedomen (strength more physique)
-ability to set crew shifts or presets for crew to rotate at different times

Crew Qualifications and Traits
Torpedoman-Strength, Repair, Efficiency
Helmsman-Strength, Repair, Efficiency
Repairman-Strength, Repair, Efficiency
Radioman-Intelligence, Technical Skill, Hearing
Sonarman-Intelligence, Technical Skill, Hearing
Navigation-Intelligence, Technical Skill
Medic-Intelligence, Technical Skill
Fire Control-Strength, Efficiency
Watchman-Intelligence, Vision
Gunner-Strengh, Vision
Flak Gunner-Strength, Vision
Machinist-Intelligence, Technical Skill, Repair, Efficiency
Cook-Technical Skill, Efficiency

Special V.I.P. Guests (these are guests that travel with you for special missions)
Photographer/Intelligence Operative-takes pictures gathers intelligence
Propaganda Official-observes Conduct and procedures of Patrol Reports back findings....no fooling around when this individual is on board....everything must be by the book
Special Ops/Commandos-use you for a ride to a mission area
Shotdown Airmen-you pick these up for points they use you for a ride home during a rescue
Reporters-Writing Story on war at sea rare but, available
Sick and Wounded-Random pickups solidiers or other injured uboat crew
Naval Officials-general transport
Mechanic or other crew- replacements needed for distressed uboats at sea

Common Traits:
Focus-ability to do work efficiently despite environmental conditions
Fear-fear of death
Intelligence-efficiency modifier
Vision-ability to see
Hearing-ability to hear
Strength-Physique, ability to do laborous tasks
Efficiency-ability to boost the function of a compartment
Technical Skill- Understanding of Station-efficiency modifier
Morale-Attitude at sea
Repair-ability to stop or reduce flooding
Fire Control-Ability to stop or contain a fire
Stamina-Ability to recover traits at rest

Environment
-differnet types of ocean floors....ability to have uboat sink in muddy bottoms causing you to push back and forth to try to free it
-realworld tides (exposing mines or cutting off navigation areas)
-sealife animated objects and sounds (whales, dolphins, biological sounds)
-seaweed or schools of fish seen in shallow areas.
-channel markers for entering and leaving ports
-Simulate Upper and Lower Currents, simulate major current systems found throughout world (gulf stream, etc) and affect the way you travel (fuel consumption, etc)
-fog horns in harbors during poor visability
-underwater terrain (trenches, mountains, etc)
-moon illusion-large moon near horizon and smaller the higher it is in sky

Ship Behavior General
-functioning ship sirens and emergency flares fired from sinking or burning ships
-navigational lights for ships at night
-portholes and other night lighting effects
-destoryers sometimes will use real hunting techniques- 3 in line abreast formation carpeting floor with depth charges, etc

Types of Damage
Air Compressor Failure
Air Leaks
Oil Leaks
Fuel Leaks
Engine Failure (either port engine, starboard engine, or both)
Out of Oil
Compartment Fire
Jammed diving plane
Battery Failure
Battery Leaks
Gas from Battery
Periscope failure
Electrical failure (lights)
Flooding
Leaks (Minor Flooding) as hull integrity decreases leaks increase
Radio, Hydrophone, Radar Failure
Bilge Pump Failure different locations
Contaminated Air (after fire) requires venting or filter scrubbing
Air Filtration Failure

Influences/Behaviors/Relationships
As CO2 Rises and O2 Decreases --> Crew Efficiency Decreases, Stamina Decreases
As Ship Damage Increases-Fear Increases, Morale Decreases
Depth Increases- Fear Increases
Attacks Increase- Fear Increases
Fear Increases- Efficiency Decreases (more mistakes and loss of focus)
Morale Decrease-Efficiency Decreases
Moral Depleats-chance of crew refusing orders or jumping overboard (suicide) increases
Lower the Food Quantity Given at meals- Moral Decreases, Efficiency Decreases, Chance of Illness Increases, Strength Decreases, Stamina Decreases
Time at Station Increases-Focus Decreases, Strentgh Decreases
Time at sea Increases-Moral Decreases, Stamina Decreases, Chance of Illness Increases
Morale Decreases and Fear Increases chances of Suicide Increase

Expandability
Open ended for modding-less restrictions
Community can edit scenery for world (make customizable ports, rivers, and environments just like flight sim community)
Compartment editing
Ship Editing
Uboat Editing
Underwater Terrain Editing ability to import realworld seafloor data like fsgenesis or fsglobal does for flight simulator

sounds perfect. Manual Navigation is my biggest new concern. FOr hardcore gamers and noob gamers, it should be optional.

That's an excellent list. :up:

Just glad I'm not the one who has to write all the code for that. :ping:

Re: My List of SH4 Demands
 

Demands, eh? That'll get you far ;) I'll bet you want all this next month too?

If this is a PTO sim, there won't be any of those.


Do you want a tactical sim or an engineering sim? You won't get both.


Do you want a tactical sim or a logistics sim? You won't get both.

Wow, I really hope the developers' intent is not to create a WWII submarine-themed D&D... Do you want a tactical sim or a roleplaying game? You won't get both.

I have no argument with most of the "demands" that I didn't quote. A very comprehensive list. However, methinks that this list simply does not take into account the nature of our chosen genre... such a sim would take longer than necessary to produce a good tactical sim. Additionally, the resources necessary to create such a grandiose project would probably be more than most companies would be willing to throw at a project that would return so little on their investment of time, resources, and manpower.

Keep dreamin' though... it's how good ideas are born.

TG

Re: My List of SH4 Demands
 

Well, I'm glad you aren't a developer with that attitude....I have seen simillar functionality listed above in other games.

Examples:
Crew Management: B-17 Flying Fortress by Microprose (you get both a flight sim and a role play crew management sim as well as damage control/engineering...as you put our fires, unjam guns, and heal crew members in flight)

Diminishing food stores as you travel: Freelancer by Microsoft (you get both a space sim and inventory management with perishables that deplete the longer you are in route to your destination)

Supplies/Cargo Transport: Pirates of Caribbean, sid mier's pirates, eve online (all ship sims with tactical and role playing aspects yes, you get both)

Engineering:Heroes of WW2 by Codemasters damage control(nothing compilcated) you had to salvage resources, ammo etc, and use repair kits with soldiers to fix individual parts on vehicles and equipment to repair them...turrets would get damaged, tracks would be thrown out on tanks, you would see an animation after you dragged a kit over the object of the guy working on it. You could also siphon gas using containers and use it to fill up other vehicles. This by the way was tactical as well as micromanagement or engineering sim so you get both...it also had role playing aspect as well because each character had different traits....so anything is possible if you aren't so narrow minded.

and if little return is the problem I think they should raise the price. most people play games beyond their life cycle: operation flashpoint which still won't die to this day...flight simulator series (which allows others to freely sell modifications and develop professional quality addons beyond what developers had made), and falcon 4.0 and its mods which is over 10 years old and still is beign played....I'm sure many serious simmers would pay up to $200 or more if it was beyond the typical expectations of a $50 game...I read forums where people by whole new systems just so they can buy a game....if they are willing to do that...what makes you think they won't pay more than $50. So if there is a shortage on income that is their fault for their pricing strategy...

PTO I could care less about I think if you want a certain campaign or theatre it should be optional....hence the part above where I say you can change your campaign....

and no I don't want this next month...I'm not sure where you are going with that comment. but, thanks for the post.

Re: My List of SH4 Demands
 

But none of the games had all of these features at once.

You are out of touch with todays harsh reality of commercial video game developement. The demands you line up sounds to me it will be super complicated and a night mare to implement and playtest, debug. I read forums too where people buy whole new machines for playing a game. But its rather few these days. With the dwindling interest in the pc platform, there is dwindling interest for people to invest loads of money in very expensive pcs that plays 3 games. Thats for hardcore nerds. And we are few today. Most people settle for EA trash games and other twitch fodder. And given a choice between an iPod, a Xbox 360 _OR_ One (count 1) graphics card from ATI, they go for the pod or the box.

Your best hope is that they leave the code wide open so ppl can mess about mod it so. There will never be a commercial sim like that.

Nice wish list perhaps you might share you wishes with IUF developers who are making a real uboat simulator and not a game like is sh3 and sh4.
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=40964


That's what is happeing with Steel Beasts pro pe right now, people are very happy with that sim and the price they payed for is 125 us bucks.

Re: My List of SH4 Demands
 

yes, they do, I just listed them. play the above games and you will see.

They are not as complicated as what has been done already or being done with other games.....Im not saying all this stuff needs to be in at once by one team...it should be patched over time....if you have seen the complexities of falcon and its dynamic engine....or the open ended aspect of operation flashpoint (where alot of new games have been generated within the game after it was released: CTI where you can buy equipment and build bases, or battlefield 1985 where you capture towns and flags, etc) All of this stuff went far beyond what developers did or for what the original game was intended....because it was open ended (they coded modular with further development in mind).
The developers for OFP are even using same engine for armed assault that will be released this year as well as parts of it that will be going into the next upcoming engine for operation flashpoint 2 where it will have fully destructible environments as well as a role playing aspect with characters and a.i. (this game by the way is a first person tactical game and it will be introducing role playing on top of the complexities of everything else....it is setting yet another standard)
Other features that are already in this game include:
-huge maps where whatever you see in distance can you can go to it (its not some backdrop or dedicated path you have to go by)
-multiple vehicles, weapons, and equipment that keep being added
-laser designated targeting for air support where you can fly and drop bombs on the lasers path or be the person holding the laser ont he target
- functioning artillery support where you can be the FOB or the artillery itself
-you can parachute out of a plane enter a vehicle or run around as infantry at anytime with out loading back in... you aren't stuck tor limited to being one type of unit
-you can be a part of a mortar team.
-there is simplistic radar functionality this can be designed to be knocked out if attacked.
-functioning lights in cities that can be turned on and off or knocked out with explosives.
-illumination flares, smoke, and other unique items can be used.
-boxes ammo caches and other supply areas
-expendible fuel that is used over time as you travel that you can recover at a fuel station or depot
- repairs that can be done on turrets tracks and other parts of vehicle
-a huge battlefield environment
-multiplayer
it has a ton of code all in one package that is complex as anything yet it was implemented...and a ton of people bought it and are still buying it...

I would agree with your statement if you said it was because of the way ubisoft or ea games handles development because that is there style of development they hire on a per project basis...so the focus never continues like you see with IL2 series with maddox, or falcon 4.0, or operation flashpoint....or any of these other games that people continue to play because of the quality.

As far as being out of touch with todays games I suggest you try more of the games I listed above to see what's out there.

I wouldn't say there is a dwindling interest...what I think is the case is you have piracy for pc games at an all time high with sites like piratebay and other access to bittorrents, etc. therefore it is in companies interest to stick with a platform that would require more work to pirate....the sales numbers aren't very accurate to determine the demand....but, these are what companies are forced to go by......If you look at the amount of pc downloads on pirate sites they are high....so there is a huge interest.... its just not documented properly....

Like you said above it all depends on market behavior...all it takes is someone to set the standard...if you asked me back during atari days or aces of the deep for pc if there would be a sim like sh3 I would have told you no. the current market is sticking to consoles...because its easy to dedicate hardware to rather than working around resource hogs like windows and they have more control over how you access the internet through charging you extra services like xbox live which you normal would get for free through pc. As far as leaving it open....I think its the only way to go to se ehow far a game can go...the engine will always outdate itself...so companies won't lose out on it...peopel will always buy the newer engine.....if anything they will have a robust identity that continues beyond what they pay into for marketing in the short run...people identify operation flashpoint, falcon, and others because they have been around forever and have strong community support....that is the best marketing you could possibly have and its free because the time and effort they put into the quality of it sells itself.

My comment with regard to your list of "demands" and timetable for their
implementation was intended in good fun, but also to point out the folly
of presenting "demands". Perhaps you meant to say something
besides "demands", or perhaps you meant to use the word "demands" in jest.

I'm not familiar with any of the games you mentioned. In fact, I'm not
much of a gamer at all; I only play naval sims. I have far too much of a
real life for much else. However, one thing I do know something about is
the naval sim genre. Among the realities of our genre:

- I would be willing to bet that over half of the players of naval
sims, i.e. the people who visit the Subsim forums, are most
interested in simulating tactics, not babysitting the crew. Sure,
I see a few posts here and there from people who want to have detailed
crew interaction and management... they strike me as people whose primary
gameplay desire is roleplay and/or reproducing the "atmosphere" of a
bygone era... which is fine. We are a community of diverse interests, but
I think the majority care most about hard simulation, rather than
role-playing.

- The features in your list are probably in the developer's list of
"nice-to-have" features as well, but I'll wager that they could not
include them with the fidelity you desire due to the time constraints of
creating a product and then realizing a timely return on their
investment... raising the price of the package may not make up for the
company running out of resources in the middle of an unnecessarily long
development cycle, or the aficionados of the genre running out of patience
and turning to another source for their "jones".

Role-playing and crew management are wayyyy at the bottom of the list of
my priorities, and I dare say, at the bottom of the list of most real sim players. When I am in the thick of
battle, I have no desire to be forced to worry about injured personnel or
crew morale except on a very general level. Save that level of
interpersonal detail for The Sims.... I am the CO of my ship, and don't
want to play an XO sim ;)

If those features could be included in the sim without compromising the
tactical and physical realism aspects of submarine warfare, then I'm all
for it... but I want to be able to turn it OFF. You wanna roll 3 against
your gunner's eyesight to determine whether or not he hits a target with
his deck gun... fine, just don't force me to play that way :P

With regard to Freelancer: I don't know how anybody can justify calling
that game a simulation, since it's not simulating real-world objects or
phenomena. It looks more like a sci-fi/fantasy game. And Pirate games? Come on... seriously... those are sims?? I'm sure they're enjoyable games, and while I admit that I know very little about them, I'm not inclined to classify any pirate game as a sim.
And as far as being open-minded... I'm fine with new features and new ideas, but I am a realist above all else.

If such a naval sim as the one you've requested ever comes out, I'll buy you a beer (root beer if you're under 21 ;) )

TG

Well people trying to buy a naval sim are trying to experience the WHOLE atmosphere of commanding a uboat-destroyer-pt boat-etc... Ill feel shorthanded if all the devs tried to focus on was just the simulation aspect :roll: thats lame. Tikigod has some good points, the damage models, more realistic missions, food supply, these are all experiences that uboat commanders had to endure. Go play an arcade game if u dont want those simulated aspects. I would JUST LOVE to have a simluated navigation tool, where i must calculate my own position, oh man that would be GREAT!!! Breakdowns were common, id like to see that too, SH2 did it. Of course not all tikigods suggestions will be answered, but a good naval sim would have over half of his prayers answered. I mean SH3 doesnt have a good damage model AT ALL, and only a couple things break down even when SEVERLY damaged, takes away from the experience. I do hope that the devs answer our prayers in making a immersive, fun, realistic pacific war submarine simulation. If u dont like it, then turn off all those realism settings, thats how the devs can appeal to gamers like you as well, toning down the realism and just blowing the S#!! out of stuff

When SHIII was still in the works I voiced a comment that I would be happy with an 'Aces Of The Deep II', a good sub sim with up-to-date graphics and sounds and great game play. While I didn't need the crew standing around me I understood those who wanted such a feature, and I have to admit that I've become so used to them that wish there were more-where is the helmsman seated behind the chief, for instance. I really like having the crew list-knowing my men by name, but I also don't need to manually adjust the planes or man the pumps; what captain does that?

I would love to see improvements in several areas, but what I will be happy to see SHIII recreated in the Pacific. A few details would be nice, such as SHI's photo and lifeguard missions, and breakdowns are something I consider essential, but boarding? Well, maybe for Germans in 1939, but outside of that it just didn't happen much.

I agree with the death variations and seeing the periscope move (I also miss hearing the periscope when in the control room), but extra crew animations (repair parties) I think would be a waste of resources.

An editable logbook would be nice.

Self navigation has been discussed before. An intermediate option would be nice: rely on your navigator, but in adverse weather your assumed position would be wrong, by an amount dependent on the last good sightings.

Engines leaking, animated engines? A waste of time, in my opinion. You will then need animated crew running around checking and fixing things.

I think food usage is important, but not to the point of inventories. A report from the chief, the ability to ration, morale deterioration; all would be nice. But essential?

I agree that having some crew members be more effecient than others would be a simple immersion boost, but I also agree with Timmyg00 that your qualifications and traits list is getting way too far into the role-playing element. Likewise the guests thing.

Stuck in the mud? Aces had that, shouldn't be hard to do. Then again, how often did it really happen? More and more animated objects means more and more rescource usage-for things that you couldn't see in real life. Channel markers? SHI had bouys, and again should be easy to do. Fog horns and the moon changing size? Sounds good to me. Underwater terrain? People already complain about mods adding minefields. Do you really want to die running into a not-quite-island you can't see anyway?

Some of your ideas are good ones, but I think the big problem was with the word "Demands".

Repair Teams in 3-d compartment could be just one dude working on the same broken part for each compartment you move him to....it doesn't have to be a ton of guys just one...to represent he is there......they even have the dude that could work in the game already....just use this guy at the shipyards...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...8-14-50-04.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...8-12-24-31.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...8-12-03-33.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...8-12-11-77.jpg

adding one guy that would move around just like the others in different stations would not take a ton of resources....

you are right about "demands" I shouldn't have put that as title...

Gamers like whom? Surely you don't mean ME, but if you did, then you obviously don't know me very well.

If you did know me (which you probably don't, because i don't hang out in the WWII sim forums much, until now), you'd know that I am an ardent advocate of tactical and physical realism, not only in a sim's development, but also during single player/multiplayer gameplay. I prefer to play at the highest tactical realism that is practical for the tactical situation, which for me is often 100%. In the case of modern-era sims, that means manual sensors, manual TMA, manual weapons settings, no "god's-eye view", and realistic mission planning and tactics. For WWII sims, manual TDC (which I am not very good at, but I do try), manual weapons settings, visual ID of targets, etc. I am by no means an arcade-style player!! However, crew management and role-playing do not suit my taste. Realistic operations and tactics - yes; micromanagement of crew functions - no.

Now you know the truth.

@Tikigod... I do like most of your list, regardless of how I feel about the other stuff. If there was a naval sim with lot of heavy crew stuff, but kept the tactical realism high, I'd be OK with that... but I'd probably turn the crew stuff off :P

TG

Tikigod, why don't you start developing your own uboat sim game?
that way you'll be sure that everything you like will be implemented.