Not Your Grand Mothers RUB 1.45 Campaign Mod - Feedback
 

Guys,
I am hoping to get some feedback regarding the speeds of various ships that you encounted.

I am interested in how much variation and highest and lowest speed per type of ship.

Was the variation if any, enough or were the speeds too simular?

Thanks in advance.

Teddy Bar.
Just downloaded this looking forward to giving it a go just as soon as I iron out some settings relating to the DD pinpoint drop thread.
Really want to get back to playing the game again.
Thanks a bunch....more later.

So far I can't comment much, though it was interesting to meet a slow-travelling DD patrol (whom I nearly confused for a merchant) and a 10kt convoy.

There's a thread in WaW, though, where one of the members is very critical of the convoy speed changes, saying that there is no way a convoy's speed should realistically vary by more than 1kt either way :-?

:D For F@%& Sake I hope you told him it was a proof of concept edition and that contrsuctive input is always appreciated and that he is always welcome to contribute instead of hiding away sprouting words of wisdom :roll:

Tell him, realistically sea state should affect the boats/convoys speed, but it doesn't.

I've encouraged him to contact you on this, myself. Well, here's the latest post to note...

When someone puts it that way, it's hard to argue against it...


Unless of course you want to say that these "sporadic" speed changes are made for the sake of gameplay, with less emphasis on realism. As far as I am concerned, gameplay is #1 while realism must take a sidestep.

We should accept that a lot of things in SH3 are not the way they are in real life, but that is due only to the limitations of a videogame; an imperfect simulator. So in that regard there may be unreal discrepancies between SH3 and reality, but that should be the way to go, rather than having a realistic but unenjoyable game.

And if I am not mistaken, I think Der Teddy Bar's primary intention was to improve gameplay with this mod, at a secondary cost of losing a little bit of realism. I am totally fine with that.



As a u-boat kaleun, our only task is to locate the convoy, and sink it. And with stock SH3 settings, that is way too easy to do.

So if you haven't already guessed it by now, I completely agree with Der Teddy Bar's sporadic speed changes, no matter how uncommon this may have been done in real life. Now, locating a convoy in SH3 should prove to have an increased degree of uncertainty and difficulty. :up:

I hope some will agree with me...

Personally, I keep saying that you have to keep in mind that you're not playing a strategy game here, but a tactical simulator. And one of the big problems is, as Teddy says, is the lack of uncertainty.

To me, the problem is not that convoys move too fast or slow, or with too little or too much speed variation. The problem is that the convoy reports are too easy to follow up on, and convoys are very easy to 'stick' with once you get a fix on their position - because the game's report system and navigation are always unerringly accurate.

To me, this is a decent tradeoff. But it might be worth making the variations less extreme for the convoys, perhaps.

what about the improved convoys concept of zigzags -- taken to an extreme? rather than have a variation in speed, have variability in course?

then again, why change things from what they are? as teddy bar said, this is a proof of concept. let's give it a try, see the effect on gameplay, then make suggestions....

I think the zig-zags as they are now are already about as extreme as would be, well, sane. :yep:

I think the speed variation is neccesary. The question is, of course, "how much".

Ok, that's always a valid question... How much?

Most ships in the stock game for a given ship I can guess immediately without measure.

"C2 slow", 6 knots exact every time. Boring.
"C2 medium", 9 knots -sound familiar?

We need some more random variation in speed to make the manual TDC work while.

I have won no friends with this reply... a bit rushed...

I cannot see an issue with this. Currently in SHIII even with manual TDC it is simply a matter of point and shoot. It is so easy that I have a 99% hit rate at 100%. No merchant, escort & warship is affected by sea state. But if we allow ourselves to think outside the square, we might consider that the ship has some engine problem where they had to slow down, or they have speed up as they are behind scheduale or want to miss the oncoming storm...


This is incorrect. Only the player's u-boat is slightly affected by the sea state. Any merchant, escort & warship can travel at maximum speed in the worst weather conditions. Easily tested in a custom mission, set up a ship to go in a square, apart from the corners, the ship will maintain the specified speed regardless of the weather. If you had read my review you would have seen this.

We again come back to the fact that merchant, escort & warship are not affected by the sea state and can travel at maximum speed in the worst weather conditions. In WWII convoys were often slowed through bad weather.

But, the slowest in the convoy had to be able to do several knots better than specified convoy speed. That is, if the convoy was set at 7 knots, then the ship had to do at 9-10 knots. A ship that could only do 7 knots was not allowed in the convoy.


I feel this is not true. As has been pointed out by other members, you can take the reported speed etc as gospol. However in real life, there are too many instances of several u-boats loosing a 'whole' convoy in bad weather or after being forced to submerge. Why? No pinpoint speed or exact course, an enemy that would change course to shake off a u-boat. Now if WWII convoys were anything like SHIII they would never have lost a convoy, ever.

In WWII convoys could and would change course by hundreds of miles if a u-boat/s were suspected of being in the area. They would try and loose an attacker at the earliest practical time, considereing such things as letting everyone know and the like. This does not happen in SHIII.

can't see past your nose because the weather is so bad? Ha, who cares, we will use the satillite navigation system, accurate down to about 10 metres.

When weighing up the 'erratic' speed changes as compared to steady as she goes at 7 knots, not matter what the sea state, with convoy reports being precise to the knot and direction, surely you would have to agree that the 'erratic' waypoints variations makes for a more realistic experience.

The first release is a proof of concept and to attain feedback that it all appears to work. The next version will be more surgical where the Bismark and the likes are not modified. Convoy wise, 2 knots either side is not too 'erratic' or radical when one considers the points I have made. And really, is it such a hard thing to come to terms with a convoy going from 6 knots to 9 knots?

I can understand some find comfort & safety in knowing a convoy and/or a ships speed. It allows for a more successful experience.

why not give convoys a varied, constant speed (ie some at 7, some at 11, some at 14) then, if possible, get rid of the speed section in a contact report?

I like that idea Caspofungin! At the very least, if unable to eliminate the target speed in the contact report... maybe it could be substituted with "unknown."
:ping:

There are a few flaws in the application of what is a good suggestion :up:


First issue is the slowest ship in that convoy. A lot of work would have to be done to ensure that each convoy had only the appropriate ships.

The second issue is that I see a convoy with no small merchants, so it must be going 11 knots or something like that.

The third issue comes back to the point N shoot. It does not matter how fast something is going, as long as you know. Then they are all sitting ducks. But you say, once I have worked this out then it the same thing, well yes, but at least I had to work it out and in doing so I could make a mistake.

The fourth issue is that after guessing or calculating the convoys speed, if it never changes then the next time I encounter the same convoy after catching up again it is simply point N shoot.

The fifth issue is while we can edit stuff out etc, it is not to say that it will not cause crashes. Just a consideration.