Terminal TMA?
 

I am trying to wire guide my fish to the target (sub) after the initial shot.

I start with a good, but long distance TMA solution and DEMON. Although I may not have an ID for the target, I have a correct TPK from TMA empirical testing.

Now, the target runs and maneuvers.

I am finding that I often mess up the TMA for the target. Given the speed with which everything happens and that TMA only receives a sonar LOB update every two minutes ... I am having trouble getting the right solution.

It seems I often deduce a turn in the wrong direction, because in this rapid time frame with the target on my beam either of two turn solutions will work. I have been assuming the target will turn away from me, but that doesn't always seem the case. I generally know that I have got it wrong when the target slows to check its status and does not continue to run. By then, my fish have missed by a wide margin.

I have been hesitant to change course to get another leg as I only have the target on faint TA and feel things are happening too fast to deal with stabilizing the TA and the time which that would take.

So, how to handle this terminal TMA? (btw, this is actually SCXIIC in an Akula)

Thanks.

Hmm ... is this where instead of simply lining up the most 2 or 3 recent LOBs that I should actually line up the older LOBs and check bearing drift of the dot stack?

The problem is that to get a good solution you need to beam the target and run in lag. This means that
you generaly will hold a course which runs counter to the target and increases range.

Given a long range target as in the case you outline this is not a good position to attempt to refine a solution .
Some players will close the range at speed, while the torp/s run then slow and turn to beam and lag to work the TMA.

Of course if you launch a UUV at the same time as your torp/s then your options for manouvre are greater. Depends on range.

Futhermore if you close at speed the UUV will still give you excellent information. I am never without one or two pref. ;)

when you have already launching your fishes, the most important LOB will be the last one only.
So, to follow the target path :

1) stick at the DEMON screen to look at the target speed change

2) each time a new LOB appear, it become the one who need to be the best aligned.

a) If you have merged the contact, it's really easy => just put the last tick mark of the ruler on the last cross beetween white and purple LOB, THEN, after only, align the 2nd tick mark with the 2nd LOB cross.
Enter and lock the speed you had the time the last LOBs were falling.
here you have excellent anticipation of the target path.
You will also see easily if the target is turning or just staying at the same course.

b) if you have only one LOB, its a bit more technical :
You need 6 LOB with a single tracker to make a good TMA, when you needed only 3 LOB with a merged track
here, you will lock the RANGE and NEW speed before to align the last tick mark of the Ruler on the last LOB. You must do this to avoid to lost the orginal target path, because it's really easy to do this when you have only 1 sensor to work with on a maneuvering target.
But if you do so, you will have a very nice solution, more than enought to guide you fishes to the target, and more than enought to see the real new path of the target, even if it just turn 180° or move away from you.
this is for the first LOB falling after your your torpedo launch
for next ones, you need to compute a bit yourself the distance =>
you know traget is going now at 25 knts away from you, so unlock the range and add 1000 yards (25 knts for 2 minutes ~1000 yards) more then relock the distance, confirm the speed and align the last tick mark with the last LOB.
Whatever the target maneuver and speed change, you can follow it at all time like this.

The TMA on SC is easier than in DW because you don't have things like corrupted LOB or beam wander effect.
whatever you do as maneuver, you always have good LOBs
If you maneuver in DW during data record, this will corrupt the new LOB, making the TMA on DW more dificult, but more realistic.

:) OKO I usually watch the new dot drift (right or left) and follow the pointer of the cursor on to the last LOB.
Hope thats right - seems to work. Then as you get more LOBs you start to build up a picture.

But here its important to watch the fan to see if your in lag or lead . Seems that if you can maintain lag you build up an accurate picture

Like Raf I build scenarios with targest on zig zags and practise. But still I am, like many, shakey in high density situations.

Little point extra I have to watch is that in SCX by default the update times are set at 20 mins.
Dont know why - but first thing I do is to right click on the display and set 10.

on merged LOBs (TA and SA or TA and UUV) I use 10mn
but with only 1 tracker, I use 20mn, and sometimes 1 hour (especially when making a TMA on active intercept, when I don't have any DEMON on a distant and not so noisy target ... like OHP).
making a TMA with a single track on a straight course target is quite easy with 6 LOBs (really not too difficult), but become more difficult with a maneuvering target.
that's why you need to lock the range if the target start to make some maneuvers.

locking the range and using the last LOB will always give you a good solution on the target, but you will need to compute a bit yourself to lock a good range, this is the crutial part.
this way you can follow a target with less than 10% of error, whatever the target do.
10% of error is enough to give lots of problem to the target.
with some experience you fall to 5% error only, and really follow the target closely.

the best defense against this (if you are the target ...) is to regulary change speed and course.
this will give lots of work to the man on TMA.
But if he already sent his fishes, HE is in confortable position and he can work, when you better escape and are not free do move as you want.

the best way to prevent the shooter to work comfortably ... is to snapshot him, even if you don't have track on him (snapshot on the TIW bearing).

rule number one : NEVER let the other guy working comfortably or you will be in very bad situation, on pressure, until you will be dead.

thats nice, IF ... you didn't moved course/speed/depth.
Because if you moved before the last LOB, this LOB will be false !
and will conduct you to a bad solution

If you moved from the last LOB, don't use it, use older LOB, LOB confirmed NOT corrupted.
this part is VERY different from SC, where there is no corrupted LOBs

EDIT : this mean you can't trust the dot stack if you moved during data record, and have to use previous dot instead of the last one.

:) Mark raised this as SCX query - like him I drift back there a lot - particularly now converting from SW to Ak.

In SCX providing you held course/speed/depth until target was well into its turn it seemed ok as outlined.

But now in DW, OKO this has changed in the way you outline and is now more realistic ?

yep
changed a lot
try this :
make a very simple scenario with a straight path target, like a cargo ship
do your TMA as stated (no depth/course/speed change)
then, once you made it, change your course or speed or depth
and look at the dot stack during the change => corrupted until you stabilize again your ship in the new course/speed/depth
at least one LOB will be corrupted, and if you follow the last LOB, your solution will be quite bad (you will think the target is changing his course or found a new -false- range for it).

you didn't had this problem with SC, whatever you do, you always have good LOB.

So in SCX my wait after a turn for the TA to straighten and then take the next 2 min LOB was unecessary
as the previous LOB taken by the bent TA was correct (although this was unrealistic.) Results ok given constants.

Now in DW, when I get back there with my newly polished Ak, I have to go back to the
drawing board on new TMA proceedures ?

A 'jewel' you say so I guess its much more realistic now.

OK I'm going to look at it again with your notes and run some tests as you recommend.

When you return from hols., I wont be alone in looking forward to the next release.

That's interesting. So, from what I understand from those who have both games (SC and DW) is that manual TMA in DW has become even harder and autocrew TMA in DW has become even easier.

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In terms of real sub Sonar crew and TMA crew interactions ... the update every two minutes is simply a game play abstraction, correct? I assume in real life the pace of Sonar input to TMA and TMA updates to Fire Control might accelerate in the terminal phase of wire guiding a torpedo to a greate frequency than every two minutes? (In SC, the every two minutes seem like an eternity in the final moments. I wish the Sonar suite BB/NB had a MARK button like active sonar has.)

Thanks.

I've never used UUVs (yep, I have a lot to learn).

I find the technique of locking the range interesting. But I am also confused ... Unless the target is moving directly away from you (which seems to mainly be the case in stock SC but not SCXIIC), it does not seem straight forward to convert the DEMON speed into a new range. So, am I missing something in my understanding?

By the way, in SCXIIC, I have had quite a few targets which I misguided torps to in the terminal phase ... and much to my surprise besides moving laterally rather than opening the distance between me and them, they actually closed the distance. I am not sure about the logic of this. But needless to say it has worked quite well against me, since until recently I have always assumed that a target will open the distance.

The only logic I can think of is: to re-engage such targets with your missed fish, you have to turn the fish around and run them at your own sub. I have done that on occassions and been successful, but maybe in real life no one is willing to gamble their own boat on a thin filament of wire. So, if a target can get between you and your fish, then you will shut them down rather than turn a fish into your own boat.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

Basically try and get in as close as you can.

I like to get within 10000 yds before shooting.

Yes, I have found (SCXIIC) getting within 10,000yds with a TA and Sphere tracker and a spread of three fish 15-20 degrees works quite well. The intersection of the two LOBs resolves target evasion instantly and simply. The spread pretty covers the whole area the target can run. Now, I am curious if I could actually fire and forget with that spread.

I find in SC you can easily fire and forget (as the targets run, but don't displace laterally). Maybe I will try my next SCXIIC warshot on autopilot and see what it does. Playing the Akula ASW Mission (for SCX) from SubGuru downloads.

I am making progress without having to wire guide. It seems in SCXIIC, since the targets don't run directly away it is important not to cut the RTE too tight. I have also seen that if you do enough spread, since the fish will normally wease you know they don't have something, but when two of them smoothly converge, they clearly have found something. :)