Random groups
 

Kaleuns. Recently I've encountered the need to better understand the campaign's randomized behavior.


For single missions, it seems "mission-layer" random groups are spawned during the first midnight, but it's also possible to get God Eye contacts at any time or location. Therefore, how do RG behave within a patrol? Can they spawn at an arbitrary time offset (ie before patrol commences)? Similarly, are they allowed to spawn mid-route (at the beginning), instead of their true initial location?

Sorry for the length of this.

The game has Units (single ships) and Groups (one or more ships) in the SCR layer, and random groups in the RND layer, which can be singles or multiples of ships. Single Missions can have both, but you have to be careful how you "Save". The basic structure in all is the same, so a Unit has

[Unit 1] - header, numbered incrementally
Name=BR DD V&W#3 - yours, or the game's name - MUST be unique
Class=DDV&W - ship Class
Type=4 - 4=DD Type
Origin=British - country of origin
Side=0 - 0=Neutral, but the "date" can change that
Commander=0 - Game=0 Human=1 controls the ship / plane
CargoExt=-1 - number designating type of cargo -1 is NONE
CargoInt=-1 - same as above
CfgDate=19380101 - controls the eqp that shows on a ship, like guns
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=false - or true. This ship "loops"
DockedShip=false - or true. Will it stay in one place?
GameEntryDate=19390801 - when it shows in game
GameEntryTime=0 - and the time it does
GameExitDate=19400411 - the date it exits the game unless terminated by other means (sinking)
GameExitTime=0 - and the time
EvolveFromEntryDate=false - this determines if its location updates when the player enters the game
Long=-694700.000000 - location in decimal
Lat=6242900.000000 - same as above
Height=0.000000 - for submarines & planes only
Heading=273.739990 - where is it pointed?
Speed=12.000000 - how fast initially
CrewRating=1 - competency, 0-4
DelayMin=0 - for the reporting
ReportPosMin=-1 - any negative number means "No"
ReportPosProbability=100 - used if above is positive, then an icon will show on the NavMap
RandStartRadius=0.000000 - how close to lat/long will it spawn?
NextWP=0 - counts from zero, so first waypoint is used here

There is also a "Commander" in the Group set-ups, but that points to the "command" ship, and starts counting at zero. While the layout of a group or RndGroup are slightly different, all of that basic information is in there. The regular "Group" will have a "naming" segment, then the first ship, all of the waypoints, and then the rest of the ships. Concerning what you are asking, the EvolveFromEntryDate influences whether the scripted [Unit] ship is somewhere along its routing, appropriate to when you enter the game (set to "true"), or if it will start when you start, which is the case with the "false" setting above.

RndGroups do not have an "EvolveFromEntryDate" setting. A RndGroup has the Name Grouping, then the ships or planes, then the Waypoints. Besides the info being re-arranged in the RndGroup, the "delay" in the Random Groups "spawning" is found in

...
Height=0.000000
DelayMin=60
DelayMinInterv=2220
SpawnProbability=90
RandStartRadius=20.000000
...

"Orange" lines. The "DelayMin" tells the game how long to count before it begins the GameEntry counting... whuh? In some cases, that figure will default to 1440, or 24 hours... In this case, it is one hour, or 60 Minutes. You can set that to zero (0) if desired. I usually set it to one (1), and it is usually left alone by the ME. The "DelayMinInterv" is the amount of time to count before attempting another "random" spawn. In this case, that would be 37 hours, or a bit over a day and a half. That would make it be later each day... The "SpawnProbability" is almost self-explanatory, so in this case, 9 out of 10 times, after 37 hours has passed, the game will spawn this group... The game tracks the RndGroups by their "CurrentInstanceID" setting, which you should not touch.

When dealing with either kind of grouping, make certain that you use enough appropriate spacing between ships in the

ColumnsNo=1
Spacing=500

The game sets the minimum for ships at 500, but 1000m is necessary for the big ships. Airplanes minimum is 300m, but should be at least 700... If you see a group not "convoying" very well, their spacing is too small - they do not maneuver very well... Note also that all of the campaign files do load during SingleMissions, unless the mod makes provisions for two installs, so some of what you see in a SingleMission might actually be part of the game's campaign files.

If you want something to run one time, then you use the SCR layer. If you want it to run multiple times, then you use the RND layer. The LND layer is for NavalBases, AirBases, and other shore emplacements.

I probably forgot something...

ReportPosMin=-1 - any negative number means "No"


Propbeanie, first of all, thank you for the elaborate explanation of the basic structure of a unit in the game. This is very helpful. Not to be argumentative, but regarding the "ReportPosMin=-1", from something GWX Campaign developer "Bigboywooly" wrote back in 2007, I've always been under the impression that the "-1" indicated that the ship or groups of ships would show/be reported when in the radius of the Contacts.cfg values. If this is correct, it would of course make a huge difference vs. always "no". Looking at the early years of GWX RND Campaign file would seem to lead one in this direction. IE if you are sailing in the North Atlantic you are not reported on ships spawning in the Baltic and vise versa, but are reported on ships in your near immediate area. Over the years, I've counted on this interpretation when making a few additions and changes to the RND Capmaign. So I guess the question is, have your own tests been able to confirm your interpretation of "-1" equaling "no" in all cases?
Thx, EmeAzul

welcome back!
 

Oh no! You invoke The Mage of the Campaign, The Wizard of the Spawners?? :haha: - BBW is amazing in his knowledge of the workings of the Campaign files. I did not know he had mentioned that anywhere. My understanding was always that a -1 meant that "no, do not report position", and that a positive number was the minutes until it did the first time. I could be way off on that, and it would not surprise me if I am not. So no, I am no longer certain of "-1 equaling 'no' in all cases"... I do know that the game will change the -1 that is set, and I suspect it has to do the [parm] section at the bottom of the file, so what you mention from BBW could well be the case. My "knowledge", such as it is, is based mostly upon Dietrich's old 17.Unterseebootsflottile's SH3ME documentation. :salute:

I know most of this, it's self-explanatory for the greater part... except DelayMin. Since I made the post, I encountered a task force which spawned 2 complete days after the patrol start, and that doesnt make sense at first. Do you think DelayMin refers to the unique GameEntryDate? In that case the possible spawn dates would be GameEntryDate+DelayMin+enough times of DelayMinInterv, so it doesnt have to be spawned at the patrol beginning. What do you think.

Indeed. You have been studying your Silent Hunter version of Modern Math! lol - but don't forget the spawn percentage, since it might be that the unit / group will not spawn until the next chance, or even later than that...

Random groups
 

No, normally when game is unmodified vanilla you cant get GodsEye-contacts.
No, before game starts (Campaign or SingleMission) there is nothing. So it is not possible to spawn a unit/group before patrol commences. You may explain what youre understanding of "spawn" means. For me it is the point where the unit/group will be initiated for the first time. This is most of the time a Stub and not a real 3D-unit.
No, spawn mid-route is not available for random groups. "EvolveFromEntryDate" in Sh3MissionEditor.exe still exist for scripted units only.


another post:
You also have to add a random negative or positive count of time that comes from the Game itself, and is not integrated in any of the campaign-files. I have no idea what the effective amount of time this is. Thats why it may be called "random". To my studies it will be somewhat around from halfe an houre upto one houre.

I recomment creating your own Campaign-files with only one or two entries for testing and see what the game does with youre entries. This way you will learn the most.