Berlin expels chief coordinator of US intelligence services in Germany
 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-980372.html

In context:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-979215.html

The Germans act naive, impotent and helpless, imo. US spionage is doing the biggest damage of all foreign powers to German economy now, because stealing business information is at the core of American, Russian and Chinese intel activities. But the Germans trust in meaningless words and rethoric phrases, and the yalmost ask for being exploited in their naive goodwillingness. Also, there is a hidden cooperation, with the BND serving as kind of sub-contractor of US services. Last point, like the second link says, national security has become the state religion in the US now. Some mon ths ago, a high reprersentative or even the chief of US services had to admit to a committee that so far the massive boost in UIS intel after 9/11 has not yed led to the solid prvention of a single terror attack on US soil. That makes it somewhat hard to sell the argument it is only about counter terrorism. It is about business. And germany pays the bill (for the Germans are in no way capable to deliver the same scale of intel activities to the US).

In other words: the US are stalking for prey: stealing economically relevant secret data, business information, and the like.

On the other hand there is a valid interest in Washington to not see Europe as a close ally anymore. Many Muslim terror plots globally have been bred on European soil, and German soil, and the continent is turning into a EU-led, extremely left-leaning centralised "Rätediktatur" by Sowjet example. Germany and America are no close friends anymore, that is just rethorics for the cameras, and with focus of US forces shifting to the Pacific, there nevertheless is a high need therefore to know in advance what those suspicious crazies in the old world are next up to. Former US ambassador Jack Kornblum put it best some months ago in a German TV format, saying something like these words: "We are no friends, we are partners on some issues. States have no friends - states have interests." The German public was stunned, and felt like being slapped in the face (which only shows how naive Germans really dream about German-American relations).

States use each other, and for that they cheat and lie and betray. There is no such thing like "special relations", and "historic ties". That is just glue mixed with candy to get the public onboard. British are especially prone to that, and thus allowed to be abused by America in three wars.

Dear Germans, if you want to show a real mature reaction to the ongoing American attacks (and thats what it is about: attacks), then stop pathetically parading your infantility with symbolic acts and hopeful wordings, but fight back. You want US intel out of Germany and save the German economy from information worth billions stolen by the US every year? Then make them, else they will not stop. They do it, because they can do it, and you cannot stop them. So prepare to set up a fight, boost your intel, become independent from American server, prepare your own internet, kick them that it hurts, degrade diplomatic relations, and get ready to wage cyberwar against the US like they wage against us. You will need to fight on several fronts, and against Britain as well. At least.

Have I disturbed your diplomatic daydreams? I'm so sorry.

While you spend years in preparing because in the past you have lazily failed to prepare and invest into the needed infrastructure, the American raids will continue, and the Russian and Chinese as well. And the French. And the British.

Dear Germany, you now pay the price for your own short-sightedness and naive follies. Destroying material value in the Euro experiment was so much more important than to prepare your defences, right? You thought you were so clever in letting America do the military job and build its military, while wasting your wealth for "social justice"? You cannot betray the devil. The devil in the end always presents his bill. And the US using its cyber ability to steal from German economy and to spy on German people is the bill he presents this time. To you, to us, to Germany.

The distortions due to the dollar printing regime, also is part of that bill.

I have no doubt that the US will not change one thing on state of things. They maybe will start to weasel, and give maybe (maybe!) excuses, and promises to not do it again, and German politicians will swallow it sooner or later. But behind the smoke screen American diplomacy will set up, nothing will change. Instead, they will intensify the spying on Germany.

From an American POV, that is what I would do at least.

Maybe they even will expel some German diplomat now? :) Possible. the game can be played by two for sure. And after the round is over, Germany stands there with lowered trousers and impotent defences against American cyberattacks. :haha:

On the friendship thing, friendship only exists between private people. Some forum members here, for example. But our nations - are rivals that sometimes cooperate where they share interests - at best.

You can not be tolerant from a position of weakness and inferiority. You can be tolerant only when you are superior to the other, and stronger. The inferior, when adapting to demands by the superior, is not tolerant by giving in to that pressure. He just bows to a superior opponent, and realises who is cat and who is mouse.

Next Germany will file a complaint to the UN, eh? :har:

No, I don't think you've disturbed anything.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...l-9590645.html

Germany is waking up, it will start spying back. Of course, you've got about sixty years of catching up to do, good luck with that. :hmmm:

How dumb has one to be, to become a politician in Germany ?
Is there a limit, or is it a requirement.

I must have said it a thousand times, nations have interests, not friendship.
As long as there are "nations" and not world citizens feeling as one and improving as a whole, there will be wars and unnecessary rivalry. Good for the secret services of the world in their various manifestations.

You know what they say: "Lucky in football, unlucky in spy craft."
I kinda feel sorry for you guys, so here's some tips for this round:

1. You may not want to use the Enigma machine this time.
2. No need to use U-Boats to drop off the spies this time. The boarder is wide open.

Anything I'm missing?

Is that a male or a female boarder?

I've changed my mind. I don't want to know.

I did not know that we were at war, yet ? :hmmm:

Well, here we go. In in ten years (or so), America managed to expend an unhealthy proportion of the goodwill built by WWII and then a Marshall Plan that allows them to get away with such things to begin with. Sure, German will almost certainly accept the token apologies this time, and the next, but the battery is clearly being sapped faster than it is being replaced.

You didn't?

Thought most Germans considered themselves at war with the government and the rest of the world? :hmmm:

Huh ? With what government ? Do you really think Germans are less content with their government, than e.g. North Americans with theirs ? :03:

Or do you mean Germans are discontent being spied upon by its own and foreign secret services who call themselves friends, allies and what not. It seems some nations do not realize what that means ?

Everyone a terrorist, right ?
Do you think anyone would like such behaviour, the world over ?

I dunno, it's a close run race between North America and Germany when it comes to discontent with their government, on here at least. :haha:

Oh, we've all been spied upon for years mate, since well before I was born and will be long after we're dead. Sometimes they're more overt about it than other times. If you lived in West Berlin in the Cold War you probably were monitored by the Stasi, if you lived in Northern Ireland and were the wrong religion then you most likely had MI5 watching you.

Britain has its problems, but we usually confine it to one thread, and just mutter about it under our breath knowing that there's not a lot that can be achieved about it here in a predominantly North-American forum, so whilst it may seem that we're content, we're just quieter about our discontent that the rest of the world. :03:

We haven't forgot the World Cup....

wait wut? no one in the US cares about soccer. hhmm.:hmmm:

Remember the Maine!

I know. And please excuse my typical german bluntness (which of course is saxon, too, historically), but this is exactly what i meant .. so West Germany was monitored by the Stasi, the russian services etc., but this now being done by (as one may have thought) befriended nations Germany obvioulsy compares to an enemy with the wrong religion, or to AL Quaeda, Syria or North Korea.
Of course we should not forget that the MI5 and GCHQ behave likewise, they just don't draw the fire at the moment.

So you say the Anglish are being quieter here in a north american forum, well - i see it this way (in my german bluntness): With the short life span we have, we do not have so much time for bs, but prefer to call a spade a spade. Typically german, of course :haha:

This does not mean we really dislike Germany so much, or its government, or the governments of England or the USA, but if you really love a country you might be concerned in how it acts, and if it acts according to what i would like to call ethical behaviour, or at least its self-proclaimed basic laws.
I am not a fan of 'Right or wrong, my country', if it comes to torture and killing innocent civilians, you might blame it on our own nation's past.
The governments of England and the US (including our own and most other nations, i am sure) have lost control of their secret services, if they ever had it.
And it is not so nice to see, that after seven centuries of assumed peace and cooperation, and the education and enlightenment of the 1970ties to 1990ies, there still is the good old chauvinistic and egomaniac system at work, everywhere.

All the best,
Catfish

Why do we trust our allies?

Because we monitor them! :yep:

For the x-th time: the lion's share of foreign spying and cyber spionage in Germany is not security surveillance and anti-terror monitoring, but simply profane business espionage and stealing. That's what makes foreign spionage in Germany so costly for Germany. The losses are said by insiders to rank in the billions. And that's what sets this new age of spionage apart from things the Stasi, the Allied services and the KGB did in Germany in the past.

It's simply a plundering tour, for the most. And that this is profitable in Germany and other places as well, is the reason why the US has so massively beefed its spionage capabilities although that did not help to prevent a single terror attack on US soil since 9/11, as the boss of US intel services had to confess before that committee some months ago.

If there would be no payoff, the immense costs would not be shouldered.

Chinese spionage also is about stealing industrial information and business secrets. So is the Russian activity.

Its about stealing what is lucrative, plain and simple.

And there is no friendship amongst thieves.

Political, military and anti-terror spionage is only the minor part of intel operations in Germany. It also exists, but is only the minor part.

Believe me. Monitoring or not, your leaders do not trust their "allies". Not even the Brits.