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-   -   Whoa!! Scary... (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=192714)

Dogfish40 02-21-12 01:51 PM
Whoa!! Scary...
 
I ran across Two nice big Armed Merchants (the ones that look like troop transports, about 11 to 16'000 tons) , anyway, I put an eel in both as they were very close. Then I put another eel in one and she started to sink.
I fired a second eel at the second ship and missed, but since she was ablaze I thought I'd watch her. She wouldn't sink,.. so...I battle surfaced. By the time we got to firing I see tracers over our heads.:o Artillery shells. We hit her twice as I'm trying to order evasive maneuvers, then I had us crash dive (they had us homed in). I really didn't think anyone on that ship would be in a position to fire at us with all that fire on their deck.
Lesson learned, Armed merchants, are Armed and will fire even if they're on fire.
Oh hell, it was exciting!! I love this game!! :up:
D40

Captain_AJ 02-21-12 09:04 PM
Thats is always in the back of my mind. Wondering if that ship that is on fire is going to give me some trouble !

Hinrich Schwab 02-21-12 09:21 PM
That's the SH damage model for you. A merchant can be completely crippled, on fire, have a 30 degree list, a shorn rudder, all boilers blown and a busted coffee pot, but if the guns are serviceable, there is one AI lemming bent on taking you with him. Both laughable and annoying at the same time. :damn: The realism of this is debatable.

Michael13 02-21-12 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartzritter (Post 1843235)
That's the SH damage model for you. A merchant can be completely crippled, on fire, have a 30 degree list, a shorn rudder, all boilers blown and a busted coffee pot, but if the guns are serviceable, there is one AI lemming bent on taking you with him. Both laughable and annoying at the same time. :damn: The realism of this is debatable.
Ehm... actually it's like it was in WWII.

Most crew took their lifeboats, but not rare some of crew were hiding near cannons on case if u-boat would decide to surface.

TheDarkWraith 02-21-12 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartzritter (Post 1843235)
That's the SH damage model for you. A merchant can be completely crippled, on fire, have a 30 degree list, a shorn rudder, all boilers blown and a busted coffee pot, but if the guns are serviceable, there is one AI lemming bent on taking you with him. Both laughable and annoying at the same time. :damn: The realism of this is debatable.
Actually this can be fixed. The AI scripts for ships have a way to get amount of damage incurred. We could set that at x% damage it's not allowed to fire guns or any weapons for that matter. The problem is defining what the x% should be.

Hinrich Schwab 02-22-12 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael13 (Post 1843243)
Ehm... actually it's like it was in WWII.

Most crew took their lifeboats, but not rare some of crew were hiding near cannons on case if u-boat would decide to surface.
I stated that the issue was debatable. There are just as many stories of this happening as there are of it not occurring. The issue in the game is that the "last stand" always occurs.

I remember in SH 4 after installing RFB where I was in the torpedo training mission and the Mogami cruiser I torpedoed and gave a 45 degree list to was still trying to rotate its guns to hit me even though I was in her baffles and the list was so bad that there was zero chance of a hit. A human crew, no matter how valiant would have realized that it was over. The AI doesn't know any better.

misha1967 02-22-12 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith (Post 1843256)
Actually this can be fixed. The AI scripts for ships have a way to get amount of damage incurred. We could set that at x% damage it's not allowed to fire guns or any weapons for that matter. The problem is defining what the x% should be.
And there will be a lot of opinions on that x%! :DL

It's a pity you can't randomize it to simulate the real life re-enactments of "Custer's Last Stand" without having ALL of the ships being manned by gung-ho do or die seamen. Keep you guessing, so to speak.

I guess one way of finding that magical x% would be to find out what the damage % of ships clearly beyond a smidgen of hope tends to be, but it would require a lot of looking at sinking ships while noting their damage %.

One rule of thumb I might use in that case was that, if I understand it correctly, the number of fires on a ship are directly correlated to its damage % and, clearly, when your entire superstructure is on fire is doesn't really matter how tough you are, you can't man a gun in a furnace.

Just a thought.

Hinrich Schwab 02-22-12 03:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misha1967 (Post 1843298)
And there will be a lot of opinions on that x%! :DL

It's a pity you can't randomize it to simulate the real life re-enactments of "Custer's Last Stand" without having ALL of the ships being manned by gung-ho do or die seamen. Keep you guessing, so to speak.

I guess one way of finding that magical x% would be to find out what the damage % of ships clearly beyond a smidgen of hope tends to be, but it would require a lot of looking at sinking ships while noting their damage %.

One rule of thumb I might use in that case was that, if I understand it correctly, the number of fires on a ship are directly correlated to its damage % and, clearly, when your entire superstructure is on fire is doesn't really matter how tough you are, you can't man a gun in a furnace.

Just a thought.
I am all for the randomization idea. It makes sense as this would have been the closest historical case. Besides, it keeps you guessing. :)

Commander Mysenses 02-22-12 03:51 AM
On a (slightly) related note, can you shoot out the spotlights? I've tried and I think they must be made from unobtainium!

Dogfish40 02-22-12 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misha1967 (Post 1843298)
And there will be a lot of opinions on that x%! :DL

It's a pity you can't randomize it to simulate the real life re-enactments of "Custer's Last Stand" without having ALL of the ships being manned by gung-ho do or die seamen. Keep you guessing, so to speak.

I guess one way of finding that magical x% would be to find out what the damage % of ships clearly beyond a smidgen of hope tends to be, but it would require a lot of looking at sinking ships while noting their damage %.

One rule of thumb I might use in that case was that, if I understand it correctly, the number of fires on a ship are directly correlated to its damage % and, clearly, when your entire superstructure is on fire is doesn't really matter how tough you are, you can't man a gun in a furnace.

Just a thought.
I would try and set a few damage types, say IF a ship was at a such and such list, then no, it can't fire. But if there's no listing yes, then it can fire. In other words, if we were just a bit more specific on the type of damage the ship has. If that even available in the damage model. The more types of specific damage, the more random it would appear. So you have Listing, Fire (not just fire but the amount of fire if available), if the ship is actually in one piece and on and on.
This would be a good mod.
D40

TheDarkWraith 02-22-12 12:34 PM
fire is an effect that is triggered when a zone receives > x% damage and the effect is declared for that zone.

Listing is nothing more than the damage/flooding model and you can't ask the game how much is the ship listing

You can ask the game how much damage the ship has and it will tell you the % damage. It tells you nothing more.

So if the deckgun is located on a zone with a fire effect declared and that zone's damage (not the ship's damage) is > damage for effect then the fire effect is played. You could have crew members firing the deck gun amidst flames :shifty:

maillemaker 02-22-12 01:41 PM
Quote:
That's the SH damage model for you. A merchant can be completely crippled, on fire, have a 30 degree list, a shorn rudder, all boilers blown and a busted coffee pot, but if the guns are serviceable, there is one AI lemming bent on taking you with him. Both laughable and annoying at the same time. :damn: The realism of this is debatable.
Well without coffee, you're going to have some mighty grumpy sailors! :)

Steve

Dogfish40 02-22-12 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith (Post 1843487)
fire is an effect that is triggered when a zone receives > x% damage and the effect is declared for that zone.

Listing is nothing more than the damage/flooding model and you can't ask the game how much is the ship listing

You can ask the game how much damage the ship has and it will tell you the % damage. It tells you nothing more.

So if the deckgun is located on a zone with a fire effect declared and that zone's damage (not the ship's damage) is > damage for effect then the fire effect is played. You could have crew members firing the deck gun amidst flames :shifty:
That's what I was afraid of. The damage model is too simple to make the idea appear random. However, the hard line idea is still OK and that's to have the AI firing of weapons on sinking ships interact with the damage model. At least the weapons would stop at some point during the sinking.

Hinrich Schwab 02-23-12 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maillemaker (Post 1843534)
Well without coffee, you're going to have some mighty grumpy sailors! :)

Steve
No, just a bridge full of drooling vegetables with only Bernard left to take the Conn.:yeah:


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