In search of free will and moral responsibility
 

http://reason.com/archives/2011/11/1...-moral-respons

A bit too heavy a literature as if I would consume it all in English, but once there is a German version - maybe.

It is good to see somebody who is sensitive to the complex and tricky inherent consequences and imlications of neuroscientific research and results - because it is so very tempting to abuse them for ideolgic reasons, and it is so very easy to be misled and following wrong conclusions. The "obvious" in neuroscientific research must be taken with utmost caution - especially by those trying to abuse it for political, legal or religious purposes.

It's fascinating, but I don't think other than confirming suspicions, we have much to fear from neuroscience. Neuroscience has never been core to our society, and I don't think we're at risk of becoming a technocratic society just yet - there are very few examples of social institutions based on pure science, and ironically the very findings here suggest that it's unlikely. Otherwise, this is what social science, psychology and philosophy has been telling us for years. The notion of free will is a problematic one. Society and individual free will alike alike, along with morals, responsibilities and relationships, are psychosocial constructs. That doesn't mean they're not inevitable in the context that we live, but they're far from 'natural' and 'original', rather something we've gained from having to live with each other. It's good to know how not to take them for granted. It's great to know how we can deconstruct them to make things better. But it's stupid to lose sleep at night over the idea that the unwashed masses might one day find out that they really don't have free will and they really don't need to be accountable and that they might as well start "free riding". That's classic post-modernist conservative thinking that produces detached, elitist, jaded misanthropes.

I'm just glad i'm too old to see where this will lead. CCIP might have a point that this isn't central to our society,...yet. But neither were smart phones and twitter/facecrack etc until recently.

The only constant is change and the pace of change continues to increase. If there is a way to control peoples will then somebody, somewhere will try to exploit it.

Of course, and by the same token it IS something that should concern people - (neuro)science-worship can be just as much of a religion as anything else, and science is just as much a social construct as anything else. That is to say that it's not free from ideology. Examples of it aren't common or widespread, but you can find them in anything from today's culture of big pharma and overmedication, to creepy things like eugenics and scientific racism which do rear their heads every once a while. I really don't think it's where it's heading though. So, concern but not panic. I think there's far more danger that findings like this will turn intellectuals into detached misanthropes than the rest of society into raging anarchists. The fact is that most of our society has a poor and complicated relationship with science as it is, and nothing that neuroscientists (or most other kinds of scientists, really) will find would suddenly overturn our society. Like I said, social scientists, psychologists and philosophers have been saying a lot of the same for years - I don't see how the far more obtuse neuroscience, most of which takes a biology degree to even understand, would suddenly revolutionize/destroy morals of the whole population.

No not the neuroscientists themselves but rather those who would fund and promote their research for nefarious purposes. After all anything that has such population controlling potential would be very attractive to the would be despots and tyrants of the world.

Freedom, the right to say and think for one's self, without control or hinderance, an impossible condition.

I'm no longer sure that free will possible in this world. Leaders cheat and lie, how can you defend yourself against this. A thief will steal all you have, a liar will watch you hang. :shifty:

There are very few things I can't do right now. The limitations are mainly where I cross the line concerning the freedom of others. That said, I can choose to go to the store or not, to go see a movie or not, to post on this thread or not. Nobody is trying to lock me away or stop me from enjoying myself, so within the limitations of fiscal concerns and the desire not to hinder anyone else's freedoms, I truly am free.

But all those things concern freedom, not free will. The politician can lie, but until he makes it against the law for me to go out and enjoy myself he hasn't touched either my freedom or my free will. The thief is free to steal, sure, but this is the reason we have laws and there's a good chance that he will lose that freedom soon enough. And what can he steal? My computer? I'm free to purchase another one. My guitar? Well, my prized possession was a guitar I bought back in 1978. It was one year older than my first daughter and was my constant companion for almost 30 years, and it was indeed stolen. The person who took it took my last link with my past, and broke my heart.

But my freedom? Not a bit. Free will? There are other guitars, and despite my age I still play music, and record music. So your politicians and thieves haven't taken either one from me.

As I recall, St Thomas Acquinas (drawing on Aristotle, et al) postulated that "free will" was the knife edge between human appetite ("desire") and "reason" (i.e., judgement). Lacking either, a man has no "free will."

Well said Steve.

Hm. Just a spotlight from another direction. There are parasites that can affect animasl and even humans to act for the benefit of that parasite's biological interest. For example in mice it can take away the fear of cats , making the mouse acting "heroic" and suicidally searching the nearness of a cat - to get eaten and thus help the parasite getting spread in the environment. Humans can be affected by certain parasites to eat unhealthy things - that are good for the parasite.

Point is, the human, the animal, are not aware that they are being manipulated.

Then there is the biologistic perspective on human culture in general, from war to sexuality.

In the end, it more and more appears to me, we are only free to choose within the limits of hormones and genetic codifications as long as we are not aware of these limitations. And the problem is that we are not aware, most of the time, to what far-reaching level we get ordered around by these in our likes and dislikes, choices and rejections.

Which may mean this: we can only become truly free if we can transcend and overcome our biological determinants that identitfy us as "human". In order to become truly human, we must manage to leave human nature behind, and become something better.

Nietzsche, the Übermensch, anyone? :know: :DL

As my grandpa said: go to the forest glade where the deer meets during mating season and watch the male and female animals' behaviour - you will learn plenty about human behaviour as well.

Exactly, Freedom and free will depend on consent to work, consent is where the west has had meltdown. The politicians make more and more law to fill the gap left by absence of consent, it just goes on getting worse.

concent in action

The intelligent manipulation of the habit and opinions of the popular masses is and essential part of democracy today. Bernays

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiKMmrG1ZKU

This must be how great civilizations fall to ruin.

They grow by seeking a higher ideal and fall once they start getting picky over the technical meaning of those ideals. So why is free* not free enough**?

*As defined by someone who lives their life in real slavery.

**As defined by someone who enjoys a level of personal freedom that the above mentioned person can only dream about.

Fascinating story, and like many I had never heard of Edward Bernays. On the other hand information is knowledge, and once you know how you can be manipulated you are free to choose not to be. Difficult, sure, and maybe impossible, but I choose whether I'm going to smoke (I don't), what I'm going to eat (one could argue that I'm a slave to my own desires) and what I'm going to do (these days I'm a slave to my own lethargy, often succumbing to the desire to just sit and look at my computer). In spite of all these negatives, within the confines of my own life I still choose what I want to do.

The problem for the good guy's, is the con artist. The con is never revealed uttil it's played out by then it's to late. To desern a lie amoung a swarm of lies is very hard to do in a Nation that depends on law to govern it, (the UK) The best minds in the UK are applied to one purpose, to deceive, and most deception comes through TV, which is what most good people spend a lot of time watching.

the above quote is from a good man.

I was interested in an article I read a couple of years back about an Italian management team where using Amenrican 50's westerns to put across the good guy message and how straight talking can bennifit company progress.

The "Shootist" there is a great quote in this film "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be layed a hand on, I don't do these things to others, I require the same from them" consent in action. I love this film :woot:

Tip: next time you visit youtube, type in brainwashing, it's not only in Church this happens, HEH

In that case all I can do is quote a line from a famous TV show: "Trust no one!"

I've never been a big fan of the movie, but that is one of the all-time great lines. Thanks for the reminder.