SH3 ships damage model
 

Hi all,
i'm playing a mission where the German heavy cruiser Prince Eugen steams in to visual range..
Problem is, she normally has to take some fire from a couple of British DD's, which more often than not leave her dead in the water, but with very little gunfire damage. It's getting sickening to see the ship looking almost pristine, but stationary.
By contrast, i cannot remember any occasion where a British heavy cruiser has been stopped by a few shell rounds from DD's. Normally they'll keep sailing merrily along until they've taken so much gunfire damage you can't see the paintjob anymore, and if they're not actually sunk they quite often keep going.
I'm talking gunfire damage here, not torpedoes.
Regarding the stationary bit, i've tried it with the Hipper and Lutzow too, the German cruisers all seem to have the same problem.
Is there a fix?

Also, the Lutzow bobs from side to side in the water like a cork, as if her centre of gravity is too high or the hull too narrow.
Is it the LR and UD drag figures in the ships sim file that are responsible for this?
I've not played with them yet. They seem similar to other ships, but i'd love to stabilize her a bit in the water. It must be a miracle if she can hit anything she fires at, i'd have more luck with my deck gun i think.

I guess nobody knows then?
I suppose most ppl spend so much of their time hunting the enemy alone, they may never have seen one of their own heavy cruisers under fire.
I hope if they ever do, it's not brought to a halt by a little destroyer fire.
Bit of a disappointment really.

So why not mod these ships so they'll behave more as you would expect?

Grab Silent 3ditor (S3D) from skwas' website and dig into the .dat, .sim, and .zon files. I can tell you that the .zon file has a lot to do with how a vessel takes damage and the .sim file determines some of a vessel's behaviors but the .dat file is where you would look for many crucial items, such as center of gravity.

Looking forward to your release of this mod. Don't forget a catchy name for it! :up:

Well lets just ignore the post above mine and go from there.

Maybe if you can list what mods you have running with your game someone may see one that conflicts with another that could cause this sort of behavior.

I personally have never seen this,but I also do not go out of my way to find German ships so rarely if ever see any except in port and while leaving port.

As for the post above mine.It makes more sense to try and troubleshoot what may be causing the problem first before trying to fix something that may not need that kind of fix.

Thankyou both for replying :)

Graf Paper it's just a single mission i've made because i got fed up with having careers mess up. Furthest i ever got was about June 44, before i had to abandon the career due to messed up saves, so after playing most of the single missions i just figured i'd work on a single mission that would keep me entertained for a number of hours gameplay, and instead of finding the enemy, they'd come and find me as i and the pride of the German carrier fleet ran the gauntlet through British waters.

Therefore it's not a mod release, but you're welcome to the mission if you want it.

CWorth (anything to do with Cosworth by chance? :D ) . . . i have very few mods running actually, on GWX 3 with
Community Units for GWX 3
VonDos armed liners ( a folder i made up to add all of VonDos's ships in one hit for JSGME)
RN CV Glorious ( cos it's not been incorporated in the above yet)
Gerome's Bismark-Tirpitz multiskin
Torpedo damage final version 2
The Q-ship mod
A Green atlantic 8k ( different sea colour for the 8k atmosphere)

That's it.

I think personally that theres a numerical error somewhere in the damage model for the German cruisers, but probably no ones noticed cos most people don't see the German cruisers under fire regularly, if ever.

I've looked in various folders and files, and it looks like the problem might be in zone 5 in the .zon files (which corresponds with number 5 in the zones.cfg index), but i daren't touch it cos in that section are x,y and z co-ordinates with numerical values ( to 4 or 5 dec. points) and i could make it worse, or make the game crash by messing with it.

A bit of advice from a ship modeller who knows how to set the armour levels for the engine rooms on the German cruisers is what i need really, but they're not forth coming lol.

While i'm on damage models, to have the Graf Zeppelin aircraft carrier sunk by a destroyer seems a bit much as well, which is another thing nobody will probably have noticed.

The Illustrious and Graf Zeppelin should be more like VonDos's CV Glorious . . . tough to sink with gunfire but without the big guns.

But thanks again for trying to help, the post has been up for almost a week ( or at least it feels like it) and nobody previously replied before you two.
. . . much appreciated :DL.

I might have to bend VonDos's ear soon, or pick his brains etc.

Can't have my comrades conking out every time they see an enemy shell lol.

I'm afraid I can't help, but I am curious about something...

Are you saying that IRL a destroyer would not have been able to sink a carrier? I know nothing about this stuff, but I know that the sole purpose of a destroyer is to destroy sh!t (the clue is in the name ;)) and I know that an aircraft carrier is basically a floating warehouse full of fuel and ammunition, so, I'm thinking... 2+2=4?

Hi onelife,
i'm no expert myself either, but if you were going to build a floating fuel, ammunition and aircraft warehouse, and it's purpose was to make war, would you give it a wafer thin shell that couldn't withstand even the small shells a destroyer fires?

Personally i'd give it the next best thing to the resilience of a battleship.

I'd certainly give the hull and deck thick armour plating, so that it wasn't liable to explode or sink when coming under fire from anything with a deck gun.

Having said that, i gather the japs built their early carriers with wooden decks, a decision they were later to greatly regret.

About as daft as fitting 11 inch turrets to the Scharnhorst and Gneisenua when all the British BB's had 15's. They were due for 15 inch refits that they never got.

As for destroyers, seems to me they were multi-purpose vessels, built to protect other vessels and ward off attack.
By necessity, bearing in mind thier role as protector and sub hunter, they would be small ( a harder target to hit) and agile.
Bigger guns would require a bigger boat (stable gun platform and resistance to recoil effects) bigger engines to achieve the same performance, easier target to hit etc.
Sure, they had a lot of fire power for their size, but against an aircraft carrier?

Somehow i doubt it.

Just my uninformed opinion tho, obviously we need someone with a bit of knowledge of aircraft carriers to sort us out :DL

I just Googled "WW2 aircaft carrier" onelife and found an article on the Graf Zep.
Apparently she was scuttled by the Germans in 45 just before the Russians overran Germany, but was refloated and towed back to Russia.
Her final fate was to be used as target practice by the Russians.
Aerial bombs were placed in her hangers, flight deck and smoke stack.
She was then bombed and shelled by aircraft and warships, but after 24 hits from a combination of bombs and warship shells she was still afloat, and had to be finished off by torpedoes.
It also says the Germans didn't have the carrier design experience of the British, which suggests to me that the Illustrious class would have had even better attack resistance.
Obviously under those circumstances the Graf Zep didn't have any cargo onboard ( fuel, ammo,aircraft) although with bombs placed inside her and presumably detonated before resorting to torpedoes, she had the next best thing.

But somehow i still don't think a destroyer or two could have much effect :03:

Just kiddin with you mate, don't take it serious fgs lol.

Oooh . . i never noticed, i've become a torpedoman.

Deepie joy :D

Really, CWorth, your assumptions and comments weren't all that helpful. Putting aside the issue of your lack of manners, if you're going to denigrate another's advice, the least you could do is take some pains to describe the steps for precisely how he should test for any probable causes to the fault described. :nope:

It depends on the approach roadhogg wishes to take in addressing this suspected bug.

Assuming it can be narrowed down to a conflicting mod, you'll have two choices on how to deal with it:

roadhogg, if you really like the mods you have enabled, and wish for the ships to work properly with those mods, then you will have to resort to some fine-tuning and get things rebalanced by modifying the ships. You can then create a mod, containing those fixes, which can be enabled and easily disabled with the use of JSGME. This allows for making any changes temporary, should you need to go back and tweak things a bit more or scrap the fixes altogether if they have undesirable effects on the game.

If you'd rather opt for relative simplicity and sacrifice an add-on mod, should it turn out to be the culprit, then CWorth's approach would be the preferred solution. Either way, it's your choice, RH. I'm sure we'd all help in any way we can if you're willing to get involved in the process.


As for the merits of carriers and destroyers:

I'm no scholar on the specifics of aircraft carrier design but Graf Zepplin was a very modern-looking carrier for her time, to my eyes. As for toughness, look at how American fleet carriers took a real pounding from kamikaze attacks, yet managed to stay afloat. A "Zero" loaded with a few hundred pounds of explosives certainly packs a wallop.

Of course, destroyers are no slouch in combat, either. There's a reason why it bore the brunt in naval engagements. As kaleuns in SH3, we primarily see the destroyer only in its role as an ASW vessel so we tend to not think of it as a ship-of-the-line. Despite its light armor and armaments, the DD's agility,speed, and versatility made it a serious threat to just about anything short of a battleship (and even one of those could be whittled down to size, given enough time or destroyers attacking). It was manufactured in far greater numbers than all other fleet ships combined and saw more action, in various combat roles, than any other class or type of frontline warship. No wonder command of a DD in WWII became regarded as the fastest way for ambitious and capable officers to be promoted in the U.S. Navy...if they lived long enough!

It would be interesting to find out if there ever were any battles where a fleet carrier was attacked by one or more destroyers and what sort of damage the DD's guns inflicted. :hmmm:

It's remarkable how a game can inspire people to learn more about history. I've learned far more about the WWII Atlantic Theater, since I picked up SH3, than I ever thought I would. It's led me to read books about WWII submarine warfare and even purchase some naval documentaries (Victory At Sea is the best, IMHO). Although I doubt we'll see school teachers endorsing commercial video games as a motivational tool for learning anytime soon. :O:

I do apologize if my original post did come across as rude.Really was not intended as such.Damn lack of any actual way to make your intent known through typing and words only.
I saw your original post to be a bit rude myslef and unhelpful due to the instant mod it yourself comment without first knowing what may be causing the trouble.I have little patience for that due to other forums I frequent where that is the answer to everything no matter what the problem is...You have a problem fix it yourself and leave us alone tyoe attitudes when you ask for help.For that I do apologize.

As for the destroyer vs carrier thing..

I would guess that it would have been rare since most carrier battles were in the pacific and those were mostly carrier vs carrier at long range fight.I may be wrong but I dont recall any fights where destroyers got into firing or attack range of a carrier during the war.

Would be an interesting study to see how much damage a destroyer could do to a carrier and how long it would take to sink it.

I would guess it would take a long time to whittle away at a carrier given how much punishment they did take from aircraft bombs and torpedoes duringthe war and continued to remain afloat.Just look at Enterprise and the poundingthat ship took during the war.Only to come back again and again.

Come on guys, have a kit kat :D

There are a few here i've noticed that get off their trolley and take things too seriously. Lets not fall in to that trap.

I have to say CWorth that your original post did look a little dismissive of GP, but i didn't think you intended it the way it came out in writing.

It is, as you say, sometimes difficult to express your intention accurately in writing, so where theres any ambiguity in the intent of a comment people can easily mis-enterpret it.
Certainly wouldn't be the first time lol.

I could take as a case in point onelifecrisis's comment about destroyers
" the clue is in the name :03:" . . . but i prefer to think he was pulling my leg and i'll continue to do that unless he makes his intention clear.

I spoke to one fella in the past who tried to slight me because i dared to question his opinion about what can be discerned of ship types through sonar, but it just told me that the guy and his opinions weren't worth my time. And neither were his mods, as i found recently when i tried one :DL.

But lets put it in perspective. It's a game, a forum for a game, and people will have different ideas and opinions, based on greatly differing degrees of knowledge.

Everyone that uses this forum should respect that, otherwise they're not fit to contribute to it. Nuff said :up:

Anyway . . . Graf it's a stock GWX ship that hasn't been modified, the German Hipper/Prince Eugen type heavy cruiser. I thought it was all the German heavy cruisers, but after more testing the Admiral Scheer/ Lutzow type seems to be ok.
I have no mods that would affect that type of ship, so i think it's an error in the armour level for the engine area on that type of ship.
Because it's a German ship, and most ppl spend all their time shooting at British ships, rarely ever seeing a German ship, i suspect it's slipped through the bug net.
It's an error that only a ship model maker would be able to identify and adjust. Making these ships appear, look and behave correctly in the game is no easy task. Playing with the settings without knowing what i'm altering is just plain stupid lol.
Regarding SH3 being a catalyst for historical interest . . . me too m8 :)

As for destroyers versus A/C's, all we un-knowledgable can do is guess.

For my money, with superior armour, attack resistance and weaponry to a destroyer, i'd guess the A/C would make short work of sinking it.
The biggest threat would probably be the destroyers ability to launch torpedoes, but with at least twice the number of guns to dodge it would be sunk before it ever got close enough to launch one that had a hope of hitting the carrier.

Maybe someone will know of an historical encounter and can tell us the outcome?

Just a thought . . maybe at night, in the right weather conditions, before radar was used on ships, a destroyer could sneak up close enough to hit it with torpedoes. Like a sub on a surface night attack.

The Prince Eugine uses the wrong Engineroom zone.
It's useing a Merchant zone.

zone type 157

[NEngineRoom]
Category=Engines Room
Multiplier=3.0
Flotability=1.000000
HitPoints=100
Destructible=No
Armor Level=14
Critic Flotation=0.3
Critical=No
;Critical Chance=0.05
FloodingTime=600
CargoType=None
Crash Depth=19

It should be changed to
zone type 162

[NEEngineRoom]
Category=Engines Room
Multiplier=4.0
Flotability=1.0
HitPoints=50
Destructible=No
Armor Level=-1
Critic Flotation=0.3
Critical=Yes
Critical Chance=0.05
FloodingTime=165
CargoType=None
Crash Depth=300

I was poking fun at my own ignorance more than anything... thought I made that clear :hmmm: but I guess it just goes to show you can't be too careful!

Back on topic, I'm fascinated by the various accounts of the toughness of aircraft carriers... quite amazing really! :o Given what's been said, it does sound like one DD alone would have quite a task on it's hands.