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-   -   Manual Targeting problem (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147025)

jason210 01-18-09 04:58 PM
Manual Targeting problem
 
So far I have missed every torpedo shot.

So I'm practicing in a harbour with own ship, and all targets stationary.

In the TDC, I set speed and AOB to zero.

My periscope angle is 321 degrees, locked on a target.

When I send the data to the TDC, the gyro angle set's itself 316 degrees, so, when I fire, the torpedo misses by, guess what? 5 degrees.

I have no offset or anything. Nor can I see anything obvious that should make this torpedo be off by 5 degrees.

Any ideas?

jason210 01-18-09 05:18 PM
Ok, I found that by setting the range maximum and sending ut to the TDC changes the gyro angle...but in reality it shouldn't affect the gyro angle if the speed of both ships is stationary!

Anyway, even though I found a way to alter the gyro angle, the torpedo is still missing the target. And I've used this method successfully many times in earlier Silent Hunter versions.

Seems to be the "track angle" that's throwing it off, and I don't know where that data is coming from...

Have RFB installed if that's anything to do with it?

Damned annoying.

Fincuan 01-18-09 05:21 PM
Your range is wrong. When gyro angle is anything but zero range starts to matter, since your periscope is a good 50 meters behind the torpedo tubes.

jason210 01-18-09 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fincuan
Your range is wrong. When gyro angle is anything but zero range starts to matter, since your periscope is a good 50 meters behind the torpedo tubes.
Ok..thanks. I'll give it a shot..

jason210 01-18-09 06:04 PM
Ok, that seemed to be the problem.

New problem is that the torpedo's are now passing underneath the target, even though I set the depth to like 5ft when target was a subchaser with a keel depth of 7ft.

Is this a RFB feature? That torpedoes as unreliable as hell? Or I am doing something wrong?

jason

jason210 01-18-09 06:18 PM
This is doing my head in. One target, stationary, 600 yards, 90 degree attack with zero gyro angle.

Fired six torpedos. Everyone either missed or was a dud.

Re-loaded the scenario (took like 5 minutes) and repeated with same result.

I set all the torpedos to the minimum depth and almost all passed beneath the target, except perhaps for two, which were announced "Duds".

Pisces 01-18-09 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason210
I set all the torpedos to the minimum depth and all passed beneath the target, except the two that hit, which were Duds. No more options. If I can't set the torpedo depth I might as well give up!
That was the problem in real-life, so accurately modeled. Blame the Admirality.

jason210 01-18-09 06:56 PM
Ok. But if it was a problem in real-life then it means subs couldn't sink anything with a keel depth of less then (guessing) 7 ft.

It's also a bit demotivating if, after three hours of firing torpedos at stationary subchaser in Shanghai harbour, I can't sink her. What hope is that at sea, with waves and moving targets?

I think I'll ram some junks on my way back, out of spite.

RSColonel_131st 01-19-09 06:49 AM
Regards range and gyro angle, it becomes even more obvious that bearing trough periscope differs from gyro angle when you take into account that the torps go straight for a few seconds before turning onto their track. Distance between periscope and turning point of the torp track is what makes range matter (likely less an issue for targets far away as both lines start converging.)

jason210 01-19-09 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st
Regards range and gyro angle, it becomes even more obvious that bearing trough periscope differs from gyro angle when you take into account that the torps go straight for a few seconds before turning onto their track. Distance between periscope and turning point of the torp track is what makes range matter (likely less an issue for targets far away as both lines start converging.)
Thanks. This did occur to me after Fincuan made his point earlier - I did not know it had been modelled in the game, or rather, I assumed that we didn't need to think about it.

I'm glad this modelled accurately. I just wish there was an easy way to reset the TDC so that torpedos just fired straight.

Pisces 01-19-09 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason210
Ok. But if it was a problem in real-life then it means subs couldn't sink anything with a keel depth of less then (guessing) 7 ft.

It's also a bit demotivating if, after three hours of firing torpedos at stationary subchaser in Shanghai harbour, I can't sink her. What hope is that at sea, with waves and moving targets?

I think I'll ram some junks on my way back, out of spite.
Perhaps the luck-factor comes in somewhere to help you. But yeah, depressing it is, ... and mostliky was for those commanders. There's nothing else to do but accepting it as a fact of (virtual) life if you want to play as real as it gets. If not, then there's allways realism settings.

RSColonel_131st 01-19-09 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason210
I'm glad this modelled accurately. I just wish there was an easy way to reset the TDC so that torpedos just fired straight.
It's easier on the german boats with the controls on the attack map, but for US subs: Set target speed to zero, periscope to 000, and then transmit range once (can be any range, you don't even have to have a ship in the crosshairs).

Sending range always also transmits bearing to target, which becomes 000, speed to zero means that no gyro angle is set, and AoB doesn't matter either at 0 knots.

Now your tubes are set to fire straight ahead the direction your bow is pointing - same for the aft tubes, but with periscope at 180.

On the german boats, all these controls are on the attack map and do not require the periscope to be pointed.

As for your depth problem, most ships I see on german campaign are merchants with well below 3 meters keels. Your sub-chaser is a bad example for practice I think, historically setting the torp to run at zero depth worked for US Commanders (at the risk of the torp breaking trough the waves).

Fish40 01-19-09 09:41 AM
Have you tried the Dick O'kane method of targeting? It works wonders, providing you are 90 degrees to your target, and you have an accurate target speed. Range dosen't matter with this method, and no PK is used.

As for the deep running torpedoes, they were indeed a historical problem early in the war, particularly for the Mk14. RFB portrays this shortcoming accurately (IMO). I set my torpedo depth to 0' on early Mk14s

jason210 01-19-09 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason210
I'm glad this modelled accurately. I just wish there was an easy way to reset the TDC so that torpedos just fired straight.
It's easier on the german boats with the controls on the attack map, but for US subs: Set target speed to zero, periscope to 000, and then transmit range once (can be any range, you don't even have to have a ship in the crosshairs).

Sending range always also transmits bearing to target, which becomes 000, speed to zero means that no gyro angle is set, and AoB doesn't matter either at 0 knots.

Now your tubes are set to fire straight ahead the direction your bow is pointing - same for the aft tubes, but with periscope at 180.

On the german boats, all these controls are on the attack map and do not require the periscope to be pointed.

As for your depth problem, most ships I see on german campaign are merchants with well below 3 meters keels. Your sub-chaser is a bad example for practice I think, historically setting the torp to run at zero depth worked for US Commanders (at the risk of the torp breaking trough the waves).
Thanks.

jason210 01-19-09 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish40
Have you tried the Dick O'kane method of targeting? It works wonders, providing you are 90 degrees to your target, and you have an accurate target speed. Range dosen't matter with this method, and no PK is used.

As for the deep running torpedoes, they were indeed a historical problem early in the war, particularly for the Mk14. RFB portrays this shortcoming accurately (IMO). I set my torpedo depth to 0' on early Mk14s
Not sure if I've tried the Dick O'kane method, but if I have I wasn't conscious of it.

I do know how to fire a torpedo straight forward out of the tube so that it hits a moving target. I made a simple torpedo calculator for this but you need to estimate the heading, speed and range of the target. My instrument then gives you a periscope angle. You just look through the periscope until that target passes that angle, then fire.

Works a treat and avoids gyro angles and tracks and all that...


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