A Euro question to the german and the dutch
 

On a danish fora there are pro and anti Euro believers

Some of the debaters, who's aginst this Euro, said that the prices in the Netherland and Germany went up between 50-100% not everything thou, after you went from Mark/Gylden to Euro.

Is that true?

I know Bluebeard and Dargo told me that many thing became more expensive.

Markus

Complete hogwash, I can say that much.

I'm not completely familiar with the Danish situation, but in Finland everyone also says the prices went up, but the statistics prove otherwise. Some things became more expensive, other things became cheaper, while the total rise wasn't much if at all above what's caused by inflation. The purchasing power, on the other hand, has been rising all along.

edit: Oh wait, I can name one article the price of which went up 50-100% with the Euro: a cup of coffee in a coffee shop. Your average cup of "Scandinavian" coffee just ballooned, and is now between 1-3€ :down:

In Germany, prices went up, but in the first year not to that ammount as you mentioned.

When the Euro came, I was working in a department store, and so saw first hand that with many, but not all products, prices climbed, sometimes considerably. They were raised, or were rounded up, or stayed the same but had been risen in advance, two months earlier, etc.

As a private consumer who is neither poor nor rich, I know that there are many items of everyday life where now the same number is followed no longer by the DM-sign, but the €-sign, which means a doubling of the price (exchange rate is almost precisely 2DM=1€. These effects only for some things (foods) can be explained by inflation, and price developements that had nothing to do with Euro introduction.

Statistics on price developement must not mean anything. The pro euro governments of course want to give the impression that with the Euro everything became better, nothing became worse, and the Euro is not responsible for anything negative. However, such price statistics stand and fall with the quality of the index of items whose price changes get included in the calculation, and how they are weighted. If you shift the evalutionbias towards things with traditional high price stability like rents for appartements and fees for official services, and do not include items with high price fluctuation or keep them at a non-representational level, you can easily give the impression that prices are stable even if the average consumer finds himself spending 40% more money on food and everyday items. In Germany, we call this the so-called "Warenkorb", and since many years it is under massive attack by critics who attack the government for distorting statistics by incompetent (or intentional?) composition of included product categories. I agree with those saying that the German official price statistics by the ministry are almost worthless and extremely untrustworthy. So, officially the Euro has done no negative effect in germany, but every household where consumers must pay attention to their money, knew after one year that things had become more expensive, and significantly so, by 25-35% after one year. that was long before the raise in food prices due to food shortages and food speculations, and the oil crisis.

So, yes, the Euro has made life more expensive. Catering trade and retail trade accepted "Mitnahmeeffekte", sometimes hidden, sometimes unhidden. Theoretically, where before I spend lets say 100 DM over one week, for all living costs, 50 euros should have worked. But after one year I already saw myself spending maybe one third more - one third at least, but not buying more. today, I spend considerably more, and buy slightly less. I spend almost the same money by number per week, just in a different currency. Which means that since euro arrival, living costs have almost doubled. I exclude heating oil, car petrol, and include food, articles from the drugstore, and the small things of everyday life you need to run your household. I used to visit a Chinese and an Italian restaurant at times. I don't anymore.

It is not rare that you witness people in shops wondering that they now spend the same price (by number) for a given item - just not in DM, but in Euros.

From my time in the store I know that we had many British and Dutch customers (Muenster is traditionally a shopping target for Dutch tourists especially at weekends, and it is close to the border). By Dutch comments I must conclude that their prices raised even more, since many said that things had become more expensive in dear old Germany - but not to the ammount as in Holland. But I cannot judge that from own experience, of course, so I give this feedback with caution.

Well, yes things have become more expensive (especially restaurants have pumped up their prices...) but that is not directly the fault of the Euro but a matter of greed. If you can hide higher prices in a new currency in which most people are not familiar yet (I mean in 2002 when it was introduced) thean you do it... at least that was the strategy of a lot of companies. And since the numbers on the price tags have become smaller (2DM=1€) you can hide price raisings better. No problem to pay 4 Cents more for a litre of petrol from one day to the other, but raising it by 8 Pfennig would have been unthinkable although it is the same amount of money.:roll:

Yes prices certainly have doubled in Holland.
A simple example would be the price of bread.
Prior to the euro era we paid 2 guilders for a normal 600 gram loaf of brown wheat.

Now the same loaf costs around 2 euro's with a conversion rate of 2,20 guilders for a euro. :dead:

Same goes for cigarettes, used to be 4 guilders, now it's up th almost 5 euro's and those went up 12% in the last year only.
:yep:
All prices have doubled now , the only thing that hasn't doubled are the paychecks from the company's we work for, that's still half of what we used to get in guilders :down:

Re statistics:
"Never trust a statistic you haven't faked yourself"
:rotfl:

I think it is fair to say most prices have doubled since the Euro was introduced.

Thats not because of the euro, but because of greed.
And you still can buy a bread for 1.40 euro in the super.

Sigaretttes gone up because of taxes and are still to cheap.;)

I'm glad we have the euro.

I dont think so AntEater, we now do, more or less, the same things we did with our money ( take in mind 7 years of inflation and rising prices on international markets) before we changed to the euro.
You don't?

I agree. Ppl tend to forget natural developments in a currency lifespan. Devalutation is the norm and especially the Eurozone saw a comparably high deflation over the last couple years. Comparing the currency worth of both the Deutsche Mark and the Euro one can't see any drastic differences in their development.

What we lacked, at least in Germany, were the regular pay raises compensating for this rather natural development. The last ten years were dominated by tightening the belt to get the german economy back to international competition levels and make more investments possible. Shortly before the financial crisis german workers and employees were about to catch up to deflation rates, demanding higher payment. The economic crisis pretty much stopped that dead in its tracks, however.

I must object to that, Bewolf. I am aware of the effects of inflation, energy and food speculations and such more. But if after 2-3 years you spend for the same habits and conuming behavior the same money in humbers, but not in DM but in Euro, then definately more than just inflation has something to do with it. and developement of wages, or lack of it, must be seen separarte anyway. If it were like oyu said, then in the early years after the euro arrival, 50 euros should have gotten me as far as 100 DM. But today, several years later, I easily spend instead of those 100 DM - 100 euros. for items of everday life, keep that in mind - I do not calculate with oil, car petrol, and restaurant visits.

First I will say thousand thanks for your reply.

I have postet a link to this thread so, my fellow debaters on this danish forum can come and read your answers for them self.


Regards
Markus