wannabe skipper with lots of questions...
 

Salute! (nice to see this being 'the' usual salutation around here like it was around il2 forums...)

First post, please bear with me if I'm going a bit on the slow, long winded style, I never ever understood 'summarizing'. That brain filter for throwing away uninteresting info is, well, defect. And I need to paraphrase everything 'cause english ain't my natural language and I lack vocabulary.

Okay, so I recently started playing Silent Hunter IV. Found it to be an interresting game, with good graphics (on my rig.. on friend's it becomes great gfx!). I was actually surprised that such slow paced action would get me involved, immersed if you will, in a computer game like that. Nice!

Okay, so after a week with auto-TDC I started looking for something more difficult and decided to (try to) tackle ol' manual firing. Well, difficult doesn't even begins to cover it. But I'll persevere, no trouble...

Ah yes. So I have a few good questions. And many more which I haven't thought about yet, but that'll be for later.

1) My sonar men are either deaf or blind. Or both. After looking at Wener's incredible Accoustic Firing Solution tutorial, I tried to replicate it.. Well feeding anything into the TDC is useless to me as, no matter how many times, how frequent or how "just before firing" I'd collect and input data, the whitey 'x' will fall quite far of the (contact on map) boat's silouhette. -- In fact, from one sonar reading to another, the range estimate would vary so much that it isn't funny.. Like 7.3 then 5.6 then 8.1 (km) etc.. I understand some error margin, but 20-25% ?!?!? -- I had my guys on BattleStation too, and they weren't tired, if it affects their efficiency.

1b) While pinging and 'sending to tdc' like mad, at one point the attack map stopped showing the green 'torpedo path' line... I tried resetting (on/off/on..) the Position Keeper, changing torpedo tubes, nothing would bring it back. What gives?!

2) How do you Id a ship in the dark, let alone estimate range? My crappy resolution doesn't really allow me to see the masts so Stadimetre is kind of, uh... so so.

3) Any good rule-of-thumb for estimating speed based on plotting?

4) That's not that many questions, uh? Well that'll do anyway. :)

Welcome! You can also find alot of SH4 activity on the Ubisoft SH4 forums.

Manual TDC, my favorite topic. :yep:

Werner's sonar attack is a thing of beauty, of course I haven't been able to perfect it either. Since the majority of my attacks occurr at night however I have developed another way that you might find helpful. I will explain the vanilla way (no mods) and the the Trigger Maru 1.6.2 way (I highly recommend this mod pack) where they differ.

Before we get started let me preface by saying that Werner doesn't use automatic chart updates, prefering to plot everything by hand.. if this is your style too then disregard the rest of my post. I run at 100 realism with only no external camera and no chart updates turned off.
If you like screenshots you will want the external camera. :know:

Whenever a contact is made locate the enemy using your normal charts (I personally never use the attack map, the disappearing line is a bug btw). If it is dark, raining, foggy, or all the above I will allow my exec to locate the enemy in the perescope and chart its location on the charts. (ie. I raise my scope or surface and let the computer put the ship icon on the map).

Now that you have a ship icon you want to track use the ruler tool to draw a line through its direction of travel (use 8 TC time compress to make this easier). Draw the line past your current location. We will call this his heading line from now on. You can tweak this line by clicking on the x at the end of the line with the ruler tool and then move it up or down till he is travelling down it.

Determine where on this line you want to make your attack and begin working your sub into possition while you plot the solution. The point on the line where you want to fire will be refered to as your intercept point from here out.

Now you can open the tool helper thingy and use the compass tool to get his exact bearing if you like (you don't have too with my method though).

Now use the compass to draw a circle on the heading line somewhere ahead of the enemy. Make the circle exactly .5nm (it will give distance as you expand circle). When it says .5nm single click to make it stay. Now you have a circle on the heading line that is exactly 1nm across. Once your enemy reaches the edge of the circle use your stopwatch (x) and start it. Once the enemy reaches the center of the circle stop the watch and note the time it took to make the .5nm trip. (you could also let him go the whole 1nm and get the time, but .5 works just as well). Now use this time to calcualte the speed=distance/time formula. You can find this in many posts on these forums by searching for speed calculations.

However, I personally prefer using a nomograph. Trigger Maru mod has one on the chart maps and you can download just the nomograph mod itself if you like or make your own with a sheet of paper! The nomgraph will have 3 columns Time/Distance/Speed. You will draw a line from the time you measured through the distance you timed for and the line will intersect with the targets speed!

Now you have your targets speed. (Sh4 v1.3 has an auto speed calculator built into the tdc but it requires identifying the target and using the stadometer, so it defeats my purpose here). You can also determine the AoB (Angle of Bow) using the heading line you drew and your subs intercept heading. Just manually turn the enemy icon in the tdc till it looks like it will look when he reaches where you r intercept point and then make sure the icons of you and him in the tdc look close to what they will look like when you plan to fire.

You now have entered the targets speed and AoB into the TDC. Do not activate the PK (possition keeper) yet though. Now you only need the distance/bearing to be ready to fire. By now you should be close to your intercept possition. Using the compass tool draw a circle with the bow of your sub as the center (or stern if using aft torpedos). When the circle touches the heading line at your intercept point note the distance (you could also use the ruler but I like to use circle in case targets spots my scope and zigs). You now know the distance the target will be from you when you want to fire. If using Trigger Maru you can use the excellent template attched to your sub icon at close zoom that gives you distance squares out to 1500yds at 360 degrees! Whatever square your intercept point falls into is your distance!

Using the inner wheel of the mast height wheel manually set the distance you measured to your intercept point. You now have all you need except the bearing of the periscope that the torpedos need to travel down toward the target.

Bear in mind that while moving into possition and gathering this information you should use good scope discipline and keep it below the surface as much as possible. Once you have your heading line and done your speed calc you really don't need to have it up till he is close to your intercept point. Keep quick peeking to make sure he is staying the course or just use a distance/time calc to determine when he will arrive. Also bear in mind that you should never even have to look into the scope except to set your tdc info (this can even be set with the scope underwater). Most of the time you will simply raise the scope using page up while on the chart screen till his icon pops onto the map, then use page down for a second or two. This represents you standing at the charts while your exec updates you with the scope. :|\\

Now you can set up your torpedos and get ready for the big moment. When the target reaches your intercept point simply place the vertical crosshair onto the target (I use the "L" lock key to make it quick since I always fire spreads anyways) and click the send distance/bearing to tdc button and also turn on the PK. The PK allows you to quickly recalculate a follow through shot if your target speeds up or slows down after a torpedo hit.

Begin setting your spread if applicable and fire away! :arrgh!:

You will notice that the ship id book, mast height, or stadometer were never mentioned. This solution is made using a place in time called the intercept point and doesn't care what arrives there. (So make sure you properly ID nationalities) :hmm:

I wrote this in a hurry so please ask me to clarify anything that is confusing to you.

Hi, and welcome to the forum. I haven't messed with manual targetting yet, but I can answer this one. If you make a mark on your map where the ship is, then use the stop watch and let it run for 3 minutes and 15 seconds and then make another mark you can measure the distance between the 2 marks to get your speed. What I mean is, if the distance measures .7NM that the ship travelled in that 3:15 then the ship is moving at 7 knots, 1.0 would be 10 knots, etc.

If you are using imperial, no need for the 15 seconds added. Use 3 minutes, or 6 minutes. If you use 3, multiply the distance the target has moved by 20, if 6 minutes, by 10.

Ex:
10 nm/hr = 10nm/60min = 1nm/6min = 0.5nm/3min

tater

Now that I am at home on my high speed internet (not the 19kbps I wrote the above on) I can post some shots of what a nomograph is. :rock:

This is an example of the speed circle and heading line, the nomograph is the thing on the right of the screen:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/c...ndaroundBW.jpg

Example of how a plot is done on the nomograph:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/c...1971/scale.jpg

S!

Okay, nice tips there... :)

The raven, Tater - So how would this 3:00 / 3:15 rule of thumb work with metric system? (I know, US subs used imperial but I can't wrap my mind around that obsolete concept of a measurement system, so... :p )

Thanks, by the way, that seems like a very handy trick for guesstimating speed. I sure hope there's a metric equivalence.

Thanks a lot for such a complete answer. The procedure looks quite similar to how I reach my firing spot, and most plotting tools I already understood how to use, but there's a few points I'll need clarification on...

Right now I'm using chart updates, mostly for the sonar 'needles' (I'm *that* lazy) and for verifying my Firing Solution while I'm learning the tricks of the trade.Angl

1) The nomograph thing I saw in countless screenshots. Thanks for explaining it to me, it's so simple yet so elegant. Does it work allright at 1024x768 res?

2) When you're reaching your interception point (or more acurately, your firing position) you seem to be on the surface and going full flank speed.. Isn't that a bit dangerous at those distances?

3) Angle On (Of?) Bow - So if I understand you well, I should not input the current AOB in relation to my target but the one I estimate it will be when I'll be activating the PK, right? That would make a lot of sense and, perhaps, spare me the constant revisions... :p

4) The Speed Dial I'll have a lot of problems with... Seems to me there's like two or three wheels and then two slide-in/slide-out contraptions... Which exactly I should fiddle with I dunno.. I'll give it a try and experiment. :)

5) Sending Heading information. That one is my BIG question mark.. Do you mean that if I take a bearing reading and send it without having used the stadimeter, it will only send bearing and NOT overwrite the manually-entered speed? If so, that's quite interresting.

I'll have a closer look at TM... I left it aside until now because I'm not sure my poor 2.4g/1gb/9600xt setup will cough up his soul trying to render the extra graphics and calculate the extra realism stuff.

Oh, and how do you play 100% difficulty WHILE using chart updates and externals? That's my current setup and that puts me at (or around?) 80%

Thanks again all for those answers. :)

OH, one last question

6) As I told that my sonar men were quite poor at pinging locations, COULD it be because I'm at career's start and they're just not good enough yet??

I have no idea what the game gives you in metric, are all ranges in meters? The dimensional analysis should be the same, if a ship goes 1km in 6 minutes, it's making 10km/hr.

Not sure where the 15 seconds came from, I've seen it typed before, but it doesn't work. Perhaps it's for knots vs statute miles? No idea.

We Americans still use that "obsolete concept of a measurement system". :rotfl:

(1) The nomograph should scale down with the resolution and not be affected. Even if it was the values would still be close enough you could get the correct speed by going up or down to the nearest number (since ships in SH4 don't go half knots).

(2) You must be refering to my "end around" screenshot. Let me explain.. I had already established that they were American ships. However, they were the only ships I had encountered the whole patrol and I needed the screenshot. That is why I surfaced and raced ahead so close. Normally I would have been ALOT further away or submerged. :p

(3) I did say Angle "of" Bow didn't I, my bad its Angle on Bow. :rotfl:
Correct, with the attack method I described you are actually plotting a solution for a patch of ocean instead of the ship you expect to be in the patch of ocean eventually. So you need to set the AoB for that intercept point and leave PK off till after you sight the target with the periscope when it arrives at the intercept point and you send the distance/periscope bearing info to tdc.

Before the target gets to the IP you will have plugged in the speed and AoB, and the distance to your IP will just sit on the dial until you send the bearing from periscope and transmit it. Then you can start PK.. (clear as mud?)

(4) The speed dial is just one wheel with numbers 0-x.
You are refering to the Mast height, distance wheel and maybe stadometer?
On that monster the inner numbers on the wheel are the manual distance.. I will add some screenshots to this to show what I mean.

(5) You shouldn't even be using the stadometer with my method. The stadometer is used in conjunction with the ID book, you would send mast height from the ID book then use the stadometer to put the reflection at mast height allowing the instrument to do the calc for your distance to target. That requires target ID and is not necessary.
You will only use the red "send to tdc" arrow above the stadometer and only once you have lined the target up in your periscope after in reaches the intercept point.
That dial is for distance/periscope bearing (of the periscope view) and has nothing to do with speed.

(6) That could be it, use your starting 2000 renown to buy a really good sonar man and test that theory. Then let me know. :up:

As far as the 100% difficulty.. its a TM thing. :yep:

Trigger Maru is basically just a collection of some of the best mods compiled into one mod, you can pick and choose the ones you like or your system can handle and download most of them seperately from their repective authors.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/c...rp1971/TDC.jpg

I dunno, I read it in one of the guides here somewhere and every time I've used 3:15 it's been pretty accurate so I never questioned it.

edit: I read about this rule here:

http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/#...ervation%20(DS)

and it says to use 3:15 because

"NOTE: Up through Tutorial version 2.1, I was using a 3 minute timing instead of a 3 min. 15 second timing. The slightly longer timing reduces the error from about 8% to about three-tenths of 1% and is just as simple to employ!"

Did some research with my friend google (it does all the calculating and converting for me, try it...)

I'll use .7 as a value from the ruler tool, no matter if I'm going metric or imperial...

Metrics :
.7 km in three minutes 15 gives :
(.7 / 3.25) * 60 = 12.9230769
So 12.923 km per hour in knots gives
12.92300 (kilometers per hour) = 6.97786177 knots
Or 7 knots. So the 3:15 would apply to metrics...

Now let's see with nautical miles, still 3:15...
(.7 / 3.25) * 60 = 12.9230769
So 12.923 nautical miles per hour... in knots?
well that's 12.923 knots according to google.

Let's try with 3:00...
(.7 / 3) * 60 = 14
14 knots?!? That'd better, should be pretty spot-on speedwise. But then, you can't translate the .7 directly you need to do like Tater suggests and multiply by 20 (.7 x 20 = 14)

Does that make any sense? (I sure hope so.. :o )

Thanks for your answers...

Yes indeed, I was refering to all the information on that dial.. :p I dunno why I remembered playing with it and it having more than one 'interactive' parts.. Turns out I can't turn the wheel itself, it's the cursor thing I need to move around (the 'marker to move the wheel to' in your screenshot).... I guess when I fiddled with it I put that marker all over the place and thought it were different plates sliding into place or whatnot...

That being said, given that I can't turn the wheel itself, its the marker I should move isn't it?

Oh, and as for 5) ... stadometer, I just now understood that I don't input it into the TDC until I also plug in the bearing. Now it all makes sense. :)

Thanks again mate !

From that targeting tutorial:
The 3:15 rule is for measurments in metric, but speed in KNOTS.

The problem with the last example Paul gave in post 10 is that the 0.7 is DIFFERENT---in the metric example it's .7km, and in the imperial it's .7nm. In the imperial it's 0.7 nautical miles measured, so you are not comparing the same speeds at all.

3:15 ONLY applies if your ruler measures km, but your speeds are still in knots.

3 minute/6 minute rule always applies as long as the units used in the ruler and speed are the same. nm/knots, or km/kph

tater

Of course I'm not comparing the same speed. I could have if I decided to go for a lower number when 'testing' the nautical miles. However it's the conversion I wanted to test, and I don't see any problem with that last test...

Do you mean to say a measurement of .7 nm in 3 min shouldn't give a speed of 14 knots?

That second example was just to show that 3:15 apply to metric->knots but not to imperial...

(I guess I just didn't understand you. :p )

[edit : Ahhh!! I do understand now. Well all distance measurements are in metres and kilometres when using the metric system in game, but the speed are still in knots. There... :) ]

Yeah, sorry, I meant to clarify for others who might look at the examples and wonder why they were getting different numbers.

I guess the "metric" system really isn't metric in SH3? Meaning that while they measure ranges in meters the speeds are in knots? That actually means that for once the Imperial system is actualy EASIER.

If you are gonna talk about ship speeds in knots, you are giving yourself a needless headache by using meters/km for distance.

All metric = very good

All Imperial = good for SH4, but not so good in general.

Mixed metric and Imperial = dumb

:D

tater

Yeah the inner parts won't turn its the pointer that slides around the outside, sorry for the confusion. Like you said, it looks like that thing should have more moving parts. :doh:

You are understanding that using my method above you never use the stadometer right?

You will use the tdc data panel that has the stadometer button on it to enter the distance to your intercept point and then you will send to tdc once your periscope is on target at the intercept point.. but you never need click the stadometer button.