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-   -   T34 vs Tiger- Kursk 1943 coming soon! (

ZeeWolf 12-06-2009 02:32 PM


Originally Posted by VAseMkIII (Post 1214707)
Fantastic :rock:

Zee I am sure that will be case we just need to get our hands on your goodies :yeah:and with your blessing sort the mp aspect :hmmm:.

It will truely make this this the king of tank sims.

Awesome! I want to help you guys in anyway I can but I don't know anything
about mp. However I think it would be astonishing to see large numbers of tanks fighting in group tactics on the new large map. :)


Ninty T34-85s attacking in waves of thirty

Hitman 12-06-2009 02:58 PM


Ninty T34-85s attacking


VAseMkIII 12-06-2009 03:26 PM

Whoaaaa 90 what FPS you getting with that Zee

ZeeWolf 12-06-2009 05:46 PM


Originally Posted by VAseMkIII (Post 1214801)
Whoaaaa 90 what FPS you getting with that Zee

Great question, but first let me tell you what I'm running :
CPU = 1 x E6750 Duel Core 2 @ 2.66 GHz
MB = MSI P6N SLT Platinum
Ramm = 4 Gigs 800mhz DDR2
HD = 130 Gig IDE
OS = MS Windows 2000 Pro SP 4
GC = MX 8600 GT Twin Turbo 256 Mb ddr3

And the frame rate when the T34s in route from staging area to engagement 13-15 fps. When all guns are blazing they take a hit to 1-2 fps. With no loss of data.

An area where I can help guys with slower computers is in the file : T34vsTiger\Scripts\Common\ ript

Here is my class paste-

class CBasePhysicsController
// Base properties

static boolean FixedTimeStepMethod = true; // If thsis flag is true then time step is divide by frequency on steps
// with fixed time delta.
static float HighEndPhysicsFrequency = 0.03f; // Frequency of physics for update, by default
static float MidEndPhysicsFrequency = 0.06f; // Frequency of physics for update, when FPS is slow
static float LowEndPhysicsFrequency = 0.12f; // Frequency of physics for update, when FPS is slowest
static int Iterations = 2; // Maximum ranges for split update time, if FPS is slow

// Physics properties

// Contact-constraint properties

Array ContactConstraintProperties = [
1.0, // The minimum incoming velocity necessary for bounce (in m/s).
// Incoming velocities below this will effectively have a
// restitution parameter of 0

0.2, // The error reduction parameter value, that controls how
// much error correction is performed in each time step.
// Typical values are in the range 0.1-0.8. The default is 0.2.

0.00001 // The constraint force mixing value. Typical values are in
// the range 1e-9 - 1. The default is 1e-3.


ZeeWolf 12-06-2009 06:53 PM

General Rule of Thumb
As a General Rule of Thumb concerning the 90 tank steamroller is
you must start blasting from 2 miles (3.2Km) away or kiss your you
know what goodbye.

The T34-85 will fire at you as they are on the march but their accuracy
is poor.

Sturm/ Panzer Units know this well as they know that lead T34s stopping during this type of attack to
take aim, can cause havoc among the fallowing Red Army units.
Very important to remember it's German courage under fire and tactics that
can win the day. - ZeeWolf

RICH12ACE 12-07-2009 09:07 AM

wow! thanks zee wolf! :yep: this is a great sim it was to good to give up! will you be working on putting in the radio op/hull gunner in the tiger? also i cannot wait for the new AI/playble tanks. :cool:.

Fer32 12-07-2009 10:30 AM

Hi zeewolf, excelent work, I hope you reach all your goals with your project for this sim. I will glady pay money if the result will bring me the tank sim I have waiting for years, Panzer Elite is just to old for my liking.
There is some buzz in others forum like SimHQ about you charging money for your work and if it is legal or not, Just dont care about them, the developers and/or publisher abandoned it righ? so they chossed not to support the game or the customer , that is the booton line.
Im very exited of the new Silent Hunter 5, has you seem the last video? If there is a market for sub sims, why not for a tank sim?. In my dreams there is a new tank sim coming, a big budget title, all destructible enviroment, last generation graphics, historical battles and great multiplayer, but while this happen or not, I SUPPORT YOU!

Hitman 12-07-2009 10:34 AM


And the frame rate when the T34s in route from staging area to engagement 13-15 fps. When all guns are blazing they take a hit to 1-2 fps. With no loss of data.
That's sadly unplayable :hmmm: but I note you don't have a top videcard. I have the same CPU as you, and only 2GB of RAM, but I have a 640MB 8800GTS and so far I am able to run the game with all graphics maxed up and no fps loss.

Will need to wait and see how it runs your expansion, but also I think that playing with the graphics settings and screen resolution there is room for improvement.

Anyway, some months after SH5 is out I will be upgrading computer, and by then I guess medium specs computers will be able to run your expansion in all its glory with no FPS loss at all.

Dowly 12-07-2009 10:44 AM


Originally Posted by ZeeWolf (Post 1214874)
Very important to remember it's German courage under fire and tactics that
can win the day.

Nah, it's the StuG that wins the day. :O:

Excellent work, mate! This'll be the GWX of tank sims for sure when it's released. :salute:

ZeeWolf 12-07-2009 11:23 AM


Originally Posted by Dowly (Post 1215107)
Nah, it's the StuG that wins the day. :O:

Excellent work, mate! This'll be the GWX of tank sims for sure when it's released. :salute:

Thanks Dowly, GWX was magnificent. :yeah:

ZeeWolf 12-07-2009 09:37 PM

Katyusha testing
Some music from Comrade Stalin's Organ. Project Katyusha has taken three days of :damn: but there's light at the end of the tunnel:sunny:


MajorMagee 12-07-2009 10:27 PM


Originally Posted by ZeeWolf (Post 1209549)
That is awesome MajorMagee, I don't even know where to begin.
Maybe if you tell me some of the things that where ignored that
you could give me a heads-up on. That would be a good start.

Your Help Wanted!

It's been a while, and I don't think I still have the notes on file. One thing was that it was supposed to represent Operation Bagration but they didn't even have any Panthers. There was some effort to supply them with 3D models of battlefield paraphernalia to make the environment a bit less sterile, but those never got adopted.

Another was the lack of a usable scenario editor, and an easy way to add user missions. We knew a fully functional Multi-Player mode was key to the games longevity, but of course that was a partial birth abortion upon release.

We argued endlessly for the ability to control the other tanks in your platoon, and to have more dynamic AI rather than the tightly scripted closed end scenarios. We looked for a way to call in artillery support, but were told that Soviet tank crews never did that.

Then there was an endless list of inaccuracies in the models, and game physics that they though made it more playable, but just made it a joke to the real simmers who might have kept it alive long enough for a revenue generating sequel.

In short, I think we were looking for the depth of simulation, and functionality of Panzer Elite X, but with better graphics. Well, we got the graphics, but that was about it...

MajorMagee 12-07-2009 10:42 PM

Wish List
This is not specific to our efforts to enhance the initial release of TvT, but is a pretty good list of what's important to any successful WWII Tank Sim.

Panzer Elite 2 features Version 4 (Sep 25 2002)

Waiting for a third generation WW2 tanks sim. A list of improvements and enhancements for Panzer Elite 2 acording the gamers wish listes

“This list can also be a guide for
the Panzer Commander Patch crew, the
Lenort 'commercial tank game', and the
IL2 developing team. Or any other
takers...” (BobR, Sep 06, 2002)


A. Strong changes (source code, math system, etc.)
B. Changes related to graphic improvements and combat enviroment enhancements
- Graphics and combat environment (including terrain, air suport, sound, etc)
C. Changes related to AI, gunnery, realism, etc
- General AI
- Gunnery
- Vehicle Behaviour
- Infantry behaviour, equipement, AT hand hold
weapons, art works, etc
D. Heavy and light weapon performance (artillery, etc)
- Artillery
E. Multiplayer
F. Other improvements and changes
- Odds & Sods
- Game tools, tutorials, gamer’s guide,


- Interesting comentaries to the game developer
many other moders and gamers

- What can we espect about Panzer Elite 2?


What is a “third generation WW2 tank sim? In August 1998 , a new era of tank simulation was started by the release of Panzer Commander. This was a tank sim revolutionair for its time due featured good graphics, and an exceptional ballistic engine and its vehicle movement engine. Really we can said that Panzer Commander was the first generation. One year later, in 1999, a new WW2 tank sim was realease. High complex AI, Detailed artwoks, accuracy historical 3D models, ultradetailed combat enviroments, a unsurpassed terrain and the introduction of the infantry in each combat field were only some of the new features wich Panzer Elite conquest hundreds of fans. In one word Panzer Elite allows you experience news degree of realism and challenge in a PC sim. In my opinion this game can be consider the second generation of this kind of sims. Nowadays all the community of WW2 tank sim gamers are awaiting for the next step, the third generation. How are a “third generation WW2 tank sim? If you are interesting in the answer you can see the list below. It has tons of new features, enhances and improvements that the fans claimed for this new step to a new tank sim. Obviously, Panzer Elite 2 isn’t the only possibility. According the news, there are three promises: Panzer Commander 2, Panzer Elite 2 and the next IL2 developer Oleg Maddox simulation proyect: WW2 RTS. What will happen in the next months? All this proyects will reachs the stores? We don’t know. But the year 2003 is plenty of promises for the WW2 tank sim gamers.

This list is even imperfect and incomplet. I asume that I just ignore at least the list that somebody could be posted in the past, but I spend a lot of work making this resume and found depth into the old discussions. When I stared this work I didn’t know how many wish lists were wrote by the PE gamers. But I try doig as well as posible for complete it. I find old wish lists in the message board’s “suggestions and ideas” section. I was work with quotes and I was try to recognize all person that send a sugestion and the day, month and year he posted it. But I not asume any responsibility if many of this quotes will not represent the real sender opinion or if something inside this opinion will be ofensive for other person. In this case I can quite soon anything to annoy somebody.

Why I spend all this work writing this long list? I had three goals. First, I want make a contribution for the PE gamers. Second, to check the gamers and modders opinons about their wishes for the next PE. Finally, although I think this is a “not complete” list is too important like a “check list” for introduce in the new Panzer Elite 2 the changes that gamers wish. And (why not?) for give at game developer some knoledge about what the gamers spects about the new version of Panzer Elite.

Nevertheless, this is a “work in progress”, so I hope also upgrade this list each two or three days by each sugestion or new or old wish list I will find.
Remember, this list is open (in its structure and its contents) to receive all advice connect with the new PE features.

PS.: English isn’t my first language. So I am sorry if this post shows this weakness.

A. Strong changes (source code, math system, etc.)

- Change from integer arithmetic to floating point. (MajorD)

- Change the outdated 'arithmetic' to a 'Floating point' system. Hopefully game performance and view range will be significantly extended. Quote to the Interview Q & A With Ostpak Developer Bob R (www.MilitaryGamer

- Upgrade from an 8 bit to a 16 bit colour system. Quote to the Interview Q & A With Ostpak Developer Bob R (www.MilitaryGamer

- Change from the current 8 bit color system to a the most realistic 16 or 24 bit color system. (Geezer)

- Improve the require available space in the texture library files (TLBs) for reach high resolution textures.

B. Changes related to graphic improvements and combat enviroment enhancements
Graphics and combat environment (including terrain, air suport, sound, etc)

- Extend terrain resolution from 750m to 1500-2000m. (MajorD)

- Proper defensive positions should be readily supported (slit trenches for inf, revetments for vehicles). (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Minefields should be supported (marked and unmarked). (33lima. June 13, 2002)

"- Artillery impact effects (odd resonating sound, ""three round burst"" effect, lack of smoke clouds, not impact graphics per see) should be improved. (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

- External camera (Ctrl+F1) behaviour should be less erratic (stays centred on vehicles regardless of zoom and speed, does not jump up and down) (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- TC unbuttoned view should be lower, as in OstPak. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- show 3D crews bail from AI tanks on either side, depending on damage, let some die and NOT bail (so that not always 5 crew members bail).(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- Crew bail-outs should be represented visually. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Animated bailing out as in IL2 Sturmovik. The survival crew must been seen runing get off the tank. (Mantoban)

- Inf casualties should remain visible, as in SB. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Briefing maps should have contours. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Engine sounds should have occasional revving (gear changing). (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- KO'ed hardware should not turn black (see OstPak). (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Proper bridges that are a separate unit and support vehicles weight ( like Panzer Commander) (BobR)

- “One idea to create in Panzer Elite 2 is 3D infantry figures, perhaps like in 'Soldiers at War' or maybe as good as 'Combat Mission'. One of the greatest additions to the WW2 tank sim genre was PanzerElites's human figures. But I think the 2D sprites look a bit dated for 2002- 2003. I also think Calvary would be a neat addition, or maybe simply farm animals. For eye candy we could see civilians, who are considered by the game engine as always being on your side. Or maybe not, depending on the scenario design!” BobR March 17, 2002

- “CAS (close air support) coul be a great bonus to add to PE. I don't know how it could be hard but it would add more realism to a tank sim”. Falagar April 11, 2002

- Add time of flight to shells. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Have all units use the ballistic model.Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Visible crew, especially in open top vehicles.Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Add a new command mode for recon units, they tend to stay and fight too long.Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Time of Flight. (MajorD)

- Time of flight for shells (like iPanzer44 and Panzer Commander) (BobR)

- True arc and time of flight for all AI & player gunnery. (MichaelY)

- I think Panzer Elite should have a separate Tank.pss particle file for each theater. Especially for winter missions. (BobR November 27/2001)

- I think each Campaign should have its own individual particle effects. The Tank.pss shouldn't be a global file, especially if winter and summer missions are in the same game. BobR 02/12/2002

- Also, some houses are mainly plaster while others are wood requiring different damage effects etc. BobR 02/12/2002

- Windows doors and interior walls basements. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- I know we have an in game compass, but the direct shadows should really be the opposite direction to reflect the 'sun' shining from the south.BobR November 27/2001

- I tried IL-2 and one nice feature it and Panzer Commander have is the ability to view all the games' models in a separate screen. (BobR January 21/2002)

- Track marks in the dirt and other surfaces (snow, mud, etc) (like Panzer Commander) (BobR). - According to BobR “[…] track marks in the ground the way Panzer Commander did. Not only is it important for realism and immersion, but can assist in gameplay by helping the player track which vehicles have been in a specific area. I feel at least three different types of track graphics would be featured. Wide marks for the heavy-medium tanks, and thin marks for light tanks and sofskins. The third would be footprints, so that movement of foot soldiers could be represented”. (BobR: posted September 05, 2002 03:21 PM)

- Besides that I would like to see a third side with Russians so you can have Russians vs Americans for a what-if scenario.(Funker Vert March 12, 2002)

- Add aircraft. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Air support. (RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- Bergepanzer support for the heavies and Wirbelwind support for Anti Air.(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- Add mines. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Fix the floating tank bug. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- The in-mission map (F12) should be full-screen regardless of screen resolution. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- F12 - full screen. (MajorD)

- Increase the number of units, number of entries in Unitdata files. (MajorD)

- Add the sun. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Allow commanders to be foot mobile. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Visual commands, for those without radios. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Direct shadows that make the sun look like it is indeed shining from the south. (like iPanzer44 and Panzer Commander) (BobR)

- Rain (and wind) sounds to go with the graphics (slipped that one in, not done before!) (BobR)

- I might add if it would be possible to model the ground shadow of your main gun. I suppose it could use the same technique used to model the direct shadow of the tank itself (BobR: posted September 05, 2002 03:21 PM).

- Increased full detail view range to ~1600m. (MichaelY)

- Animated AT gun, tank commander & jeep crews. (MichaelY)

- Drivers that pick cover half-decently (halted, if not also when moving) and reverse on command/when appropriate. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- A full range of infantry improvements - better visual representations like prone when halted and more realistic movement, better AI. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Better arty visuals and sounds. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Vision anomalies like things becoming visible/invisible in odd ways (lift the binos and there's suddenly a village in clear view, which there was not a sign of without them) . (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Ranks should be more realistic (some scenarios have Privates as TCs!) and/or tailor-able (so you can substitute authentic national ranks - probably possible now, OstPak have SS ranks?). (33lima. June 13, 2002)

"- Sub-unit designations should be capable of being tailored (if they aren't already) so that, eg, in a British scenario, you can have ""1 Troop"" instead of ""Platoon Alpha"".(33lima. June 13, 2002)"

- Enable changing of your main company (not just platoon, or player) vehicle, for variety and to enable realistic variation of difficulty. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Enable variation of difficulty level by a means which will vary the strength and/or quality of the enemies you will face, in any given scenario. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

"- Sort out view anomalies ie ""now you see it, now you don't"" stuff. (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

- Better use of the infantry sprite animations to match the infantry condition. (MichaelY)

- Better damage depiction on tanks ie. throws track, shell holes etc. (MichaelY)

"- The ADC/helpguy should be renamed Platoon (or Troop) Sergeant - mere platoon commanders do not have an ""ADC"" (""Who do you think you are, Napoleon??""). (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

- Commands that are mentioned in the ScenEd documentation but don't seem to be implemented). (MajorD)

- A lot of what people are clamering for sounds really nice, but looking at this from the point of view of a programmer it is mostly wishful thinking and unlikely to ever happen because the resources to do it are only available to a commercial (ie paid) team. However there are certain things that could probably be done by competant programmers (in C++ or whatever language PE is coded in) many of which were planned but not implemented due to technological restraints in 1998/99 or lack of time to meet a Christmas release date. (Most of these are based on PE documents or comments by Teut as I remember them.) (MajorD)

- Terrain should be smoother/less jagged everywhere, and flat for railways, bridges, water features etc. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Better art works for infantrymen and hold hand weapons, clothes, etc. (Mantoban)

- A secondary screen to view the enemy or friend unit (tank, other kind of vehicles and infantry) padlocked or target, like many WWII fligth sims. (Mantoban)

- More pieces of armor modeled.Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Better handle larger and smaller crews. (WWI tanks, tankettes)Blake C (August 31, 2001)
- Stereo coincidence sights. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Curved terrain. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- I'd like the focus to remain the platoon/zug/troop but wish for better control over the wingmen. This would mean simple arrow back/forward/left/right/accelerate/stop/engage commands from the exterior view (that Playstation sim, 'Panzer Front'...). Tachanka, Feb 11 2002

- Simple commands for other units (infantry etc) within a limited radius of your tank. Like the Tiger commander shouting to the infantry in SPR. An old 'arcade' tank game called 'Muzzle Velocity' had something like this...Tachanka, Feb 11 2002

- I'm definitely in the dynamic campaigns camp. I find the continuity far more immersive and varied than 'warping' from one disconnected and overfamiliar, scripted scenario to the next. I *like* 'Combat Mission' and M1TP2!Tachanka, Feb 11 2002

- Jabos of course!Tachanka, Feb 11 2002

- Easy-to-use map/scenario creator. Tachanka, Feb 11 2002

- Modelling of shell time-of-flight. Tachanka, Feb 11 2002

- Simpified cockpits seem fine to me. Like the static, clickable 'photo' views in M1TP2 rather than the 3D pan-able models (?) in PE. I think that's what Teut means and I agree... Tachanka, Feb 11 2002

- Commonwealth, Russians, Italians etc as standard as well. Tachanka, Feb 11 2002

- Tank riders and visible crews. Tachanka, Feb 11 2002

- Everything else Teut said. Tachanka, Feb 11 2002

- Seamless 3D interior with smooth transition between stations. Take a look at the excellently build 3D tanks of WWIIONLINE. I wouldn't want anything less spectacular.(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- give us dynamic damage (impact holes, debries, etc) as they happen (look at IL-2). (RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- be able to damage and lose side skirts. (RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- ripping off the fender on the right side (since the driver didn't see the wall he scraped)... things like that...(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- torch-outs through the blown open hatches after an ammo explosion like in real life. (RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- Show track damage in great 3D... let the drive wheel throw a track out as long as there drive wheel runs. Then let the thrown track be a real 3D entity.(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- allow for foliage that I can rip from trees and stick to my tank's hull as added camo.(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- realistic exhaust particles in conjunction with throttle setting.(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- gearbox grind sounds. (RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- brake squeals sounds (look at IL-2). (RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- 3 levels of keyboard turret control: normal, fine, extra fine (right now its only normal and extra fine, no in between). (RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- resupply DURING a mission from Opel Blitz or Steyr tractor.(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

"- MORE MISSIONS, preferably in the form of (even short) campaigns - eg the 21st Pz Div counterattack on D-Day; the Witmann Tiger action at Villers-Bocage on 13 June; 2nd ""Hell on Wheels"" Armored -v- 2nd ""Vienna"" Panzer on 31 Dec 44; an historical British-v-German Normandy campaign; XXX Corps' drive to Arnhem (the ""Garden"" bit of ""Market Garden""?); Kampfgruppe Peiper's drive for the Meuse.(33lima 02/08/2002)"

"- Missions with real, named historical units - eg as above. No big deal that PE lets you change to vehicles the unit didn't have. No big deal if the vehicle camo or markings are representative and not completely accurate (ie don't hold up missions by thinking that every mission must have a full set of accurate vehicle sub-types skins - these can follow later or not at all - ""the Play's the thing"", like the man said).(33lima 02/08/2002)"

- Missions with better planning - especially with numbered phases, with distinct tasks for each unit for each phase, to ensure units can co-ordinate better. (33lima 02/08/2002)

- For example:
"""Mission - KG Becker [assuming this is the player's parent unit] will seize and hold the bridge at Toum."
Execution -
General Outline - the op will be in 2 phases. Phase 1 - we will seize amd hold the line Toum Station to Hill 112, inclusive. Phase 2 - we will seize and hold Toum Bridge, grid 123456.
After Phase 2, you are to be prepared, on command, to exploit SW, as far as El Bey.
"Detailed Tasks - phase 1 - KG Wirtz clear & hold Toum station, route as shown here; Zug Falke, cover Wirtz advance, then shoot them onto the Phase 1 obj from the north; when station area reported clear, deploy to the west, here, to cover possible counterattacks."" etc."
Orders could be slightly less scripted here to give the player a bit more freedom - the important point is that this would preserve
4. Missions with in-game orders from your company commander, either scripted or prompted by triggers (might cramp the player's freedom too much, but it'd be a big realism improvement)
5. Some way of delaying the impact of a main gun round (at least, visually and audibly) to correspond, even roughly, with the range (even if the hit/miss calculation still isn't affected).
"7. Some way of giving infantry and AT guns etc some kind of realistic field defences, even if the grunts start running about at some point - ie something like camouflaged slit trenches or revetments (not the awful ""sandbag pilboxes"" of Panzer Commander). I've seen some attempts at this sort of thing - every new scenario should have them."
"7. Opel Blitz trucks which have the wooden rear bodies painted accurately in camo colour(s), instead of ""wood effect"", though I have to admit the latter is very nicely done."
8. Panzer IV 3D models without that wooden box on the right front track cover (Tamiya have a lot to answer for, putting that on their 1/35 kit, like it's a common fitting!!)
"9. A new turret for Sherman 75 variants with the proper shape for the little rear ""bustle"" ie top should slope down to the rear (very distinctive and its absence mars the default M4 - maybe the Britpack shermans have this fixed, must look sometime)."
Overwhelmingly, I think that what PE would really benefit from most - where the effort would make the biggest difference - is now in an expansion of missions. Nice though more or better AFVs or theatres will be, more missions is what's needed most. (33lima 02/08/2002)

C. Changes related to AI, gunnery, realism, etc

General AI

- All common company formations should be supported in scenario construction, as for platoons (ie wedge, inv wedge, line. column) and it should be possible to group any 2 or more platoons in any formation for a phase within a mission (eg where one platoon supports by fire, & another two swing around to a flank in column, then go to line and assault from the flank, or tanks support inf or the other way around). (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- It should be possible to ask for help (but not command other units) or be asked for help eg ask inf to take out an AT gun, be asked by inf to take out an MG. (33lima. June 13, 2002) (33lima. June 13, 2002)

"- Role of Company HQ should be better supported eg scenarios should support triggers which generate radio interventions by HQ (if it doesn't already) eg ""All stations from Stab, orders. We will destroy the enemy to our front. Zug Habicht, you will support by fire, rest will attack right flanking. Falke left, Adler right, Stab centre, smoke screen will cover, then HE on objective. Formate on me, move now, out"". (OK maybe a bit simpler than that!) (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

- “a dynamic campaign[not knowing what's going to happen the second time around would be great] and better wingman control they have got to be THE most annoying facet of the game.Oh and please don't make it so only the top 5 of user's can play it like IL-2 not everyone can afford a 3.000 dollar system”. Barkhorn Feb 9 2002

"- ""I think a dynamic campaign should be top priority as all the eye candy in the world still cant prevent boredom"". (Mike Quigley Sep 16, 2002)"


- better Zeiss optics (again, look at WWIIONLINE).(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

"- Fix the built-in limitation that makes ALL LONG RANGE COMBAT COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC! This problem means that the game's AI gunnery does not see any obstacles or terrain beyond 750 meters! BEYOND 750 METERS, THE AI GAME WORLD IS AS FLAT AND UNOBSTRUCTED AS A TABLE TOP - YOU SEE OBSTACLES LIKE HILLS AND HOUSES THAT OBSCURE YOUR VIEW, BUT THE AI DOES NOT! MY has complained many times while we were producing/testing the MvR and Torchpack, that AI-controlled long range guns can literally shoot through buildings and hills - because they are not there! - to knock out an enemy target. There is no ""fix"" for this in the current game - even if the gamer jumps around among his own tanks and manually aims/fires all of the guns under his control, ALL of the other guns in the game are controlled by the AI and they do not see ANY obstacles beyond 750 meters. Think about this. The result is that any scenario is heavily biased in favor of the side with long range guns. Even if BOTH sides have long range guns, combat begins a"

- ToF. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

"- What Geezer said re gunnery - the ""flat beyond 750m"" thing, and solve the other various reported gunnery anomalies, like gunners who can track through, but not shoot thru, obstacles that are there, or do damage at very close range. (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

- Indirect artillery fire and fire missions. (MajorD)

- All rounds fired should have ToF, with associated visuals e.g. arcing tracers as in M1TP2 (33lima. June 13, 2002).

- Known gunnery anomalies should be fixed (eg flat pane at longer ranges, inability to hit or damage at close range, tracking thru obstacles yet firing when not in LOS) (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Speed of sound should be implemented, as in SB. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

"- TC handing-off tgts to gunner should be improved (TC should traverse turret - simulating order to gunner - till tgt appears to be in LOS, gunner should then indicate if he can or cannot see tgt - ifn not TC traverses [""orders""] fine laying - present system appears too infallible - see SB, close to WW2 despite TC being able to traverse instead of order). (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

- When the TC hands off a tgt, his view should stay centred on the tgt by default, instead of swinging around when the turret traverses. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

Vehicle Behaviour

- consider realistic physics when the turret blows off, flies and lands (compare to Steel Beasts and Panzer Commander).(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- More realistic vehicle movement (they seem to have no weight, inertia or momentum - no physics modelling? (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Don't let vehicles move through each other. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Vehicle suspension movement should be improved (wheels, esp idlers/sprockets, should seem to rotate and track sag), as in PzC. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Vehicles should use cover better, preferably on the move but at least when halted, as in SB eg when platoon halts, AI vehicles should automatically move to best or any cover from view or fire available within 100m or so. Present system requires too much babysitting. Need for this would be reduced if terrain was smoothed. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Vehicles should reverse, when ordered (player's platoon) or desirable (all). (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Vehicles should behave as if they had weight, inertia and momentum - ie, less jerky, sudden movement, including turret traverse (and loss!), and gun evevation/depression, as in PzC. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

"- Vehicles should not get stuck on ""invisible"" or minor obstacles and collision avoidance should be better (incl. no ""ghosting"" thru other vehicles). (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

- Med/hy tanks should be able to destroy inf/gun positions by crushing. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Road-following should be enabled, as in SB. (33lima. June 13, 2002)
- Ordering (own) driver to drive towards a visible point should be enabled, as in SB, and ordering of AI platoon vehicles to a given point improved (a bit too erratic now). (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- When in formation, and not in contact, turrets of platoon vehicles should default to the arc they should be scanning in real life, and move L to R to simulate scanning, especially at the halt, as in SB. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Visible battle damage on vehicles. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

Infantry behaviour, equipement, AT hand hold weapons, art works, etc

- 3D infantry, 3D tank crew (unbuttoned: I want to see a 3D driver's head, radio operator's head, Commander's head, bouncing around dynamically with the suspension over rough terrain. Articulate arms on commander so he can point out things...(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- have 3D infantry troops hitch a ride on my tank(s), so I can take them with me if I order them to do so. Animate accordingly.(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- Infantry should be mostly prone when halted, or at least when halted and under fire, and movement appearance improved. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Infantry behaviour should be improved e.g. less ending up crouching immobile regardless, ability to surrender, ability to use fire & manoeuvre within sections/squads (gun group goes to ground and covers, rifle group moves, then vice versa.) (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Restore realistic capability to the infantry units and AT guns (they were dumbed down due to complaints by player testers). (MajorD)

D. Heavy and light weapon performance (artillery, etc)


- Add more artillery patterns. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Have Joe Cotton make the Particle effects. (RainMan, March 07, 2002)

"- Artillery - calling of fire missions - unrealistic approach needs to be fixed. Correct approach should be - player's company is allocated 1 or more batteries in support, each with ""percent response likely"" (high if support is under command, lower if in direct supt, lower again if in general supt). Limit on fire missions for each should be relatively (4-6 each?). Player should then ASK for a fire mission (nominate a tgt) which may or may not be approved and fired. Other missions should be fired automatically, without player request, on tgts as they are spotted by other units. In real life, most arty avail to troops goes on pre-planned fire, rest is controlled by Forward Observer, at best an indiv pl comd (player's level) will only ask for missions. Most arty should be happening without his input. (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

- Arty response times should be longer (except pre-registered tgts) - doubled at least. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

"- Pre-registered fire missions should be supported (player can call in when needed, arrive quickly and more likely to be approved eg real-life ""DFs""). (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

- For non-preregistered tgts, ranging fire should arrive first, and repeat for a random period, to simulate the FO ranging on the tgt. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- It should be possible to maintain smoke screens once in position e.g. by raising limit on such missions somewhat. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Enemy arty should be better represented eg prep shoots in the attack, firing DFs in defence, so that players learn appropriate lessons eg do not go firm right on an obj you have just cleared, it will be registered to the foot and you will be hit. (33lima. June 13, 2002)

- Add an artillery forward observer. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

E. Multiplay

- Cooperative multiplayer missions. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- I know that a lot of people would like to see PE 2 be like WW2 Online in concept: lots of tanks, aircraft, and infantry in one huge game. What's wrong with keeping the the game as a tank experience but adding limited air support and infantry in Multiplay?(ChuckD January 17/2002)

- Maybe one air spotter and perhaps a JABO per game? Controlled by AI or human? AI controlled Anti-aircraft, anti-tank, and infantry could be selected and placed before launch. This could add to the total tank experience by making MP objectives more realistic.(ChuckD January 17/2002)

- That brings up another idea: could Multiplayers participate with AI in standard PE scenarios on opposite sides? Then all you would need for PE 2 is add a few aircraft maybe. I think it might be better to play with six to twelve humans and a load of AI players in a game. One of the big problems with massively mulitplayer games is organization. This way the organization is built in to the AI and you only have to manage your human teammates.(ChuckD January 17/2002)

- Also, make the game joinable after launch.(ChuckD January 17/2002)

- I better quit typing and get to work or I'll have a lot of time to play PE real soon.(ChuckD January 17/2002)

F. Other improvements and changes


- Have Meatwater do the sounds again(RainMan, March 07, 2002)

- Mission oriented driver orders. (i.e. go to the end of the road!). Blake C (August 31, 2001)

"- Default key command set should be reworked to avoid need for so many multiple keystrokes (classic example, ""platoon fire at will"" should be ONE keystroke, not 2 2-key combos). (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

"- The briefing mechanism should impose some sort of agreed, visible structure for oral orders eg NATO 5-point (6 if you include ""ground""). (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

"- To encourage the idea that you and your fellow platoon commanders are attending a real Company ""O"" Group, the briefing mapscreen should be surrounded by a suitable graphic (see the briefing screens used by European Air War, for example) - the inside of a tent, the side of a tank, a classroom in a damaged schoolhouse). Start and end with some ""rhubarb-rhubarb"" chatter, as in EAW. (33lima. June 13, 2002)"

- Interact/communicate with allied units. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

- Play as company comander. Blake C (August 31, 2001)

Game tools, tutorials, gamer's guide, etc

- A simpler scennario editor. (33lima)

- Redesign Object Editor for better manage to TLB's files. (Geezer)

- Increase texture resolution and TLB sizes. (MajorD)

- “perhaps a simple drill/tutorial that takes the newbie through the change of formations, hatch open etc, kinda like the one in panzer front. seems a lot of question on the map and arty etc. this would be of extrteme value to all players, i made a pocket reference and laminated it to put by mine, just to keep from having to look into the manual all the time. ‘train to time not standard’ ”. Stugumby March 07, 2002

Interesting comentaries to the game developer, many other moders and gamers:

Teut: If you guys plan any render technology enhancements the easiest way is to throw away the software renderer (thats the only reason why its 8bit). To implement 16bit texture libs is very easy, actually it was planned at some point. Here is the joke: when the 3d hardware accelerated version loads the 8bit textures it converts them to 16bit So thats a 5 minute hack to correct.My wish, and yes, I gto one: rewrite the renderer to directx8 standards to allow better graphics. As the renderer is the last thing in the chain it should be possible. My other wish: convert the Panzer Elite math from integer to float. This would speed up Panzer Elite like 4 times

MajorD: Changes to improve the AI and vehicle physics are major tasks requiring extensive expertise in those areas. Improvements to the Graphics engine and other graphics improvements could probably be done by an experienced programmer in the area. Implementing Time of Flight to all combat (or at least player combat) requires specialized talents as well but might be possible even with limited resources. (MajorD) Some of these need to be done in the proper order as they rely on them to function. ie there probably wouldn't be enough CPU available to implement most improvements without the conversion to floating point arithmetic.
How many good programmers are there in the PE community capable of taking on these tasks? Not many methinks. However dialog is good, but it needs to be tempered with a bit of reality and priorities set based on maximum payback/foundation for the effort expended. (MajorD)

"robpzc: 1) I want to give my 2 cents worth on the next PE. Whoever has the rights for it should understand that we may be a small community of gamers but we SUPPORT THE PRODUCT! They can make it as expensive as they want IF THEY GET IT RIGHT, because we will pay whatever it costs! I know that I would gladly pay $100.00 OR MORE for a top end WW2 tank sim with great graphics and stability.Put all of the code on 3-4 or any number of CDs. It doesn't matter as long as there is a switch for low end computer users to turn ""off"" the graphics their cheap PC can't handle. THE REST OF US WILL ENJOY THE SIM AND SING IT'S PRAISES! The owners of outdated machines will drool while looking at the screen shots and that will motivate them to save up and upgrade their computer!"

"2) And please make the code ""user friendly"" from day one! That's what I would pay"
"extra for! Anyone who says Panzer Commander sucks has never learned to design their own scenarios and AV textures. Coming home from a stressful day at work and spending 2-3 hours working on a new scenario was what I loved about PZC! Part of the fun was planning around the weak AI. Unlike PZE the AI tanks in PZC pretty much stayed where you put them unless the terrain is perfectly flat. So you hide them behind buildings and give them orders to stay dormant until 6 minutes into the mission etc; when you know that you will be in the area trying to reach the objective to trigger the scenario victory. The aircraft were simple constructs but so what? At a distance the Stukas look realistic and you give them orders to bomb the factory that you placed on the plateau north of your position, you can't help but enjoy the feeling of being in a real battle!"
My main gripe about PZE has always been the lack of a Scenario ED. Then when it became available it was not user friendly! Please make the code for PE2 easy to access!You aren't helping sales when the code is hard to manipulate!
That should be Job Number One! MAKE THE NEW CODE IDIOT PROOF!

3) The guide for PE2 should be OstPak of course! Remember we hard core gamers are never going to stop playing! So if there is no PE2 we will STILL be playing the old PE and WE WILL RUN TO BUY THE NEW Panzer Commander! (robpzc March 12, 2002)

What can we espect about Panzer Elite 2?

Acording to Teut (February 06/2002) in “PE2 we would add/change the followung (not a complete list, just some snippets):

- drop campaign pics, we would render them with the ingame engine, ie. you can drive your platoon into the camp and modify it there, no screen switching

- dynamic campaigns. Player success has direct influence on a dynamic front line, ie. unlimited missions

- easier controls. Drop 90% of the keys without sacrificing simulation aspect

- tutorial

- better multiplayer with more players

- the player should be able to control AI units if he wants to, this includes infantry and other vehicles

- simplify cockpits to periscopes only, no one uses the virtual cockpits but the periscopes. Making them easier to use makes them better to play. This also means all units can be played from start, not a selection.

- more detailed terrain which can be used, better damage system for craters, rubble, ruins, vegetation

- streets and rivers which actually are even.

- better water and river graphics

- Air Strikes, Anti Air Units

- Bigger Battles. 256+ Units per mission

- More military structures. Barbed Wire, Bunnker, Tank Traps, Minefields”

vehicles shouldn't be able to charge through buildings and thick woods/forest/bocage without a major risk of immobilization. Even light vehicles can do this in PE. In the Normandy battles the true nature of the bocage is not modelled. Anyone who has seen the surviving bocage hedgerows knows what I mean. Thick, ancient hedges growing out of steep, tall banks reinforced with rocks (dug out of the fields and placed there by farmers over the centuries) lining roads and fields. Some 10-12 feet tall.

make it so that you are not restricted to using one particle Tank.pss file for the game. As a global file, it means that if you play winter missions you need to first exit the game, then enable a separate winter effect like the one Joe hs made.

If a separate particle effect could be created for each campaign then your house damage effects could reflect plaster predominately (Italy, Afrika), whereas your Russian houses will be mostly wood splinters.

make it so that you are not restricted to using one particle Tank.pss file for the game. As a global file, it means that if you play winter missions you need to first exit the game, then enable a separate winter effect like the one Joe hs made.

If a separate particle effect could be created for each campaign then your house damage effects could reflect plaster predominately (Italy, Afrika), whereas your Russian houses will be mostly wood splinters.

web based gamming would benefit from you being able to assign crew positions to different people, so you actually crew one vehicle this would make it more realistic. You could also do this offline if you had multiple screen support. I feel the only way you can truly simulate tank combat by trying to commmand a real crew in the thick of fight.

Voice over net would also transform the web based gaming you could actually use a real radio set and use intercomm for your vehicle, send radio for your troop or battalion???. Rather than frantically bash in text messages.

-Infantry and all AT-gun and tank crews should
definately be 3D!

-Tank crew should bail out when hit badly.

-Tank commanders should be able to jump out
from tank during a mission.

-Player should be able to co-operate with AI
units (infantry, tanks, all of them...) during
a mission. I mean ask infantry to have a ride
on your tank, or ask infantry to assist you
to enter some village or forest terrain or
simply to ask some another to destroy some

-Calling artillery or air strike should happen
like you just ask support via radio and get it
if it's possible.

-And yes, air units. Jabos! : )

-Working AAMG in commanders hatch. You should
be able to use it against attacking airoplanes
and infantry too.

-Real speed for main gun ammo. And speed of
sound too. Explosion from 100 meters would be
heared with delay.

-Damage should be visible.

ZeeWolf 12-08-2009 01:30 AM


Originally Posted by RICH12ACE (Post 1215068)
wow! thanks zee wolf! :yep: this is a great sim it was to good to give up! will you be working on putting in the radio op/hull gunner in the tiger? also i cannot wait for the new AI/playble tanks. :cool:.

Thanks for your compliment, and yes I agree is to good to give up. However
the Playable tanks are not coming for a while (months). The AI tanks in production first then the playable. But both tanks productions are planned with crew.


SS tanker man

ZeeWolf 12-08-2009 01:52 AM


Originally Posted by Fer32 (Post 1215101)
Hi zeewolf, excelent work, I hope you reach all your goals with your project for this sim. I will glady pay money if the result will bring me the tank sim I have waiting for years, Panzer Elite is just to old for my liking.
There is some buzz in others forum like SimHQ about you charging money for your work and if it is legal or not, Just dont care about them, the developers and/or publisher abandoned it righ? so they chossed not to support the game or the customer , that is the booton line.
Im very exited of the new Silent Hunter 5, has you seem the last video? If there is a market for sub sims, why not for a tank sim?. In my dreams there is a new tank sim coming, a big budget title, all destructible enviroment, last generation graphics, historical battles and great multiplayer, but while this happen or not, I SUPPORT YOU!

Thanks Fer32, I hoped to generate a buzz, that's a good start to gage the interest in this project. Please let me make my self very clear: I do not get legal advice from forums. And the rumor of abandoned copyrights could not possibly be true. So, as for generating an income from my work, I really don't have a clue on how else to do it. :) Be assured though I have every
intention to being and staying legal. :salute:
As for SH5 I'll be getting it.

Thanks so much for supporting my efforts

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