SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

SUBSIM Radio Room Forums (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/index.php)
-   UBOAT (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=281)
-   -   Depth Charge Evasion Authenticity (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=243225)

Snorkel7 12-01-2019 05:55 PM

Depth Charge Evasion Authenticity
 
I posted this on another forum. I was wondering what some of the opinions are. The premise was two fold even if the developer missed it:

1. The realism of real time evasion (in this case depth charges).

2. The time scale in regards to some of the game concerns.

Here is the initial post by me followed by the developer:

"I just started into this potential gem of a sim (GOG b124 Hotfix 2 version). I payed full price regardless. I use the term sim with trepidation. I guess this topic is respectfully addressed to the developer as well as the community.

"I realize after slogging through every conceivable thread and playing 20-30 hours, this game (in development) has remarkable potential. For starters, I wonder about the potential realism of depth charge evasion, in light of the following quote from the following book excerpt:"

"It takes some seconds for a depth charge to arch through the air and and more seconds to sink through the water to its depth, during which time a skillful skipper may maneuver out from under it. If he chooses to go down to say five hundred feet, he has quite a few seconds for evasive maneuvering. If you miss him once he has that fifteen minutes reprieve during which he doesn`t have to creep silently but can run at high speed while the ocean is reverberating and disturbed water conditions give your sonar phoney echoes"--from Twenty Million Tons Under The Sea by Admiral Daniel V. Gallery, USN (WOLPACK--Philip Kaplan, P. 52, 1997).

"If the former quote [fifteen minute evasive time] is not conceived in the game then you can hardly call it a "Sub Sim."

Reply From Developer:

"Hi,

Thank you for the kind word.

Depth charges sink speed should be mostly correct as they were taken from various specifications for each depth charge model.

15 minutes in this quote doesn't refer to evasion time for the submarine, but the time it has to escape from the area, while attacker's hydrophones are blinded by explosions of its own depth charges."

My Second Reply,

"I appreciate the reply. However, your answer does not completely answer the question. Is the "fifteen minutes" (in game) modeled on real time or default time compression like it is presently?

"Furthermore, when you say "area" are you referring to a "bubble" space in the game?"

The Developers Following Answer,

"Well, it's not a hard number at all. Author of this quote definitely just wanted to give an example of the scale. Time for that varied greatly due to many factors - attacking crew's skill, weather, detonation depth and power, even luck."

"There is also no such thing as a default time compression in the game during combat. Everything is 1:1 whenever u-boat is near other ships or land."

My Thoughts:

I feel the developer cleverly evaded the premise of my question or I did not explain my question well. Maybe I`m wrong out of respect. Notice the claim of 1:1 "time scale" when in contact with land and other ships. Some additional questions:

1. Does he (developer) suggest you have fifteen minutes to leave the area in a game time "bubble"?
2. Does 1:1 time scale stay active according to actual contact or is 1:1 time contained in a dynamic hard coded game bubble that swells in size according to some algorithm?

If so, then the detection model is not modeled very well in my opinion if the 1:1 time state is determined incorrectly, or fudged due to "gaminess."

I guess the real question is: When and how does the time compression "transition" occur according to global detection according to the sub itself in relation to other entities?

Answer: 1:1 Time state happens only during contact and visual land marks.

GoldenRivet 12-01-2019 08:12 PM

Heres what i can offer you.

15 minutes makes for good reading, but the only universal constant i am aware of in our realm of existence is the speed of light, everything else is dynamic and has an element of randomness.

The ocean is a dynamic thing, perhaps the most dynamic thing on our planet besides the weather. with varying layers, currents, tempartures, varying ambient noise etc. These are all very difficult to program into a video game or even a simulation. they also ALL have an impact on how difficult, or easy it is for an attacker to detect a submaring by passive or active sonar acquisition.

there are too many variabls to commit to a hard 15 minutes. under controlled, clinical conditions in which the US Navy and other navies study the phenomenon it might be 15 minutes. But the observed 15 minutes might have been at X water temperature, X power of explosives, X number of explosives, X depth of explosives, X ambient decibles of the local environment etc etc. Under those controlled, clinical constraints, 15 minutes might be reasonable or even average.

change one variable, and the minutes arguably should also change.

does the latest version of U-boat simulate deafening of sonar due to deph charge explosions? yes. it does.

is it 15 minutes? i havnt timed it. i suspect not, however it is directly proportional to the number of depth charges dropped. the sonar signature of the region is distorted rendering you almost undetetctable for a period of time. if 5 charges are dropped it might render you "invisible" for 4 or 5 minutes. the more charges they drop, the longer the sonar signature in the area is distorted.

for my money, as someone who has been playing sub sims since the Atari 2600 was a big deal, U-boat, in its current iteration, provides the most realistic hunt and evasion available - period.

it is my observation (today) that in the vicinity of other ships or ports or aircraft, time compression automatically drops to 1:1 ratio.

this appears to be triggered by the "we are close" notification. depth charges falling, torpedoes speeding across the sea, ships crawling across the periscope view... these are all 100% real time 1:1

outside of these areas, the ratio is much higher, like 7:1 (i dont know the exact figure)

if you ask me, the entire game needs to be 1:1 with the exception of time compression as selected by the player

Snorkel7 12-01-2019 08:41 PM

GoldenRivet,

This is good reasoning and I appreciate your way of describing exactly how I feel about the matter. I get the randomness (and luck factor) that is out of our control. Among other things as well.

The part that gets me (maybe it is the missing of the notification) e.g. contrails, smoke on horizon, when there is no way you can see it yourself. Sim programmers are able to pull off the latter in DCS and things happen much faster. Subsequently, in Uboat, all of a sudden things happen so fast at seven knots (which can happen and does in real world) and the game is over.

I do agree with you on the 1:1 time compression control. In closing I am really liking this project so far. It is a great time for simmers overall despite petty grievances.

I should also add my sentiments to the developers for even addressing my questions on a public forum to begin with. They won my respect and support for that one.

I also appreciate you chiming in.

Cheers

Aktungbby 12-01-2019 09:30 PM

Welcome aboard!
 
Snorkel7!:Kaleun_Salute:

Snorkel7 12-02-2019 12:36 AM

Cheers.

Snorkel7 12-03-2019 11:36 AM

No "Travel" Mode Option
 
It looks like there is a "no travel mode" option planned for a future "Early Access" release. See the following quote from other forum:

"There is an unspoken agreement in the game with the player that game is realistic during combat (in loaded areas), but some things get off during travel mode to make the game playable in the way it was meant.

We are going to make a realistic travel playing mode eventually, where there would be no travel mode and only plain time compression like in Silent Hunter series. We are going to do it a bit later in Early Access though, because that would put too much testing stress on us to maintain two very distinct modes, with different timing for many things in the game.

It may be completely doable for a modder focused on this task though, so maybe somebody will accomplish that before we get to that point."

Note: It appears the developer has considered the debate and plans for a remedy down the development road.

GoldenRivet 12-03-2019 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snorkel7 (Post 2638962)
It looks like there is a "no travel mode" option planned for a future "Early Access" release. See the following quote from other forum:

"There is an unspoken agreement in the game with the player that game is realistic during combat (in loaded areas), but some things get off during travel mode to make the game playable in the way it was meant.

We are going to make a realistic travel playing mode eventually, where there would be no travel mode and only plain time compression like in Silent Hunter series. We are going to do it a bit later in Early Access though, because that would put too much testing stress on us to maintain two very distinct modes, with different timing for many things in the game.

It may be completely doable for a modder focused on this task though, so maybe somebody will accomplish that before we get to that point."

Note: It appears the developer has considered the debate and plans for a remedy down the development road.

It is my conclusion as well, based on what i have been browsing through, that the developers are making it a priority to address the time compression issues.

Personally, since i occasionally have 3 and 4 weeks of downtime, to do like i had at least once with SHIII and complete a 1x time compression patrol. :D

Snorkel7 12-03-2019 11:59 PM

I`m optimistic about the game although it has a long way to go. The proof will be in the pudding in terms of how they conclusively optimize the "Unity" engine for stutter-free frames when all the primary features are in play.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:32 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1995- 2020 Subsim