SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

SUBSIM Radio Room Forums (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/index.php)
-   Mods Workshop for Cold Waters (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=285)
-   -   surface to air (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=232066)

foz 06-23-2017 08:33 PM

surface to air
 
I`m new to this , is there any way to knock out that Russian helicopter.
Weapons mod .
All in all this looks really good , reminds me of , and don`t ball me out
Tom Clancy SSN pc game .
:salute:

Delgard 06-23-2017 09:57 PM

I have heard of real-world talk of having a manpad easily deployed to the sail bridge. But having the sub so-exposed to begin with is not a good idea. I don't think CW does.

Maybe someone else has a better explanation.

cj95 06-24-2017 01:16 AM

I thought some older soviet subs had manpads attached to the periscope.

(Peri-pads?)

Again probably too exposed....

CowabungaKid89 07-01-2017 01:18 AM

Newer subs, at least the German type 212A/Italian Todaro class, can launch missiles with anti-air capabilities from the tubes; but in 1984, I guess we're stuck with legging it when a helicopter shows up. :D
Edit: Just FYI

"The Interactive Defence and Attack System for Submarines (IDAS) is a submarine-launched, lightweight, multi-role, fibre-optic guided missile system being developed for the German and other partner navies.This weapon is designed to provide improved self-defence and asymmetric warfare capabilities for submerged cruising submarines. It enables the submarines to engage threats from anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters, small- and medium-sized surface vessels in covert operations, and pre-selected coastal targets. [...] A prototype of the IDAS missile system performed its maiden flight from an underwater test facility in Northern Germany in 2006. It was successfully launched from the German Navy's class 212A submarine in the Baltic Sea in 2008."

That's a loooooong way off from CW's time frame.

Edit 2: These missiles have also been tested on Norwegian subs; given the necessary electronics are on board, I guess they could be launched from any standard NATO 533 mm tube.

Aktungbby 07-04-2017 09:31 AM

welcome aboard!
 
CowabungaKid89!:Kaleun_Salute:

denis_469 07-04-2017 03:40 PM

Russian submarines have sams with launch from surface: http://sovpl.forum24.ru/?1-4-20-00000083-000-0-0#006

Have sams from 1975 year.

ETR3(SS) 07-04-2017 04:34 PM

No offense, but referencing your own post on another page with no supporting information probably won't convince many. Also, surfacing to launch a SAM is suicide.

denis_469 07-04-2017 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS) (Post 2497461)
No offense, but referencing your own post on another page with no supporting information probably won't convince many. Also, surfacing to launch a SAM is suicide.

I did not set myself the goal of convincing anyone. It's not necessary to prove anything clever, but fools are useless. And in fact since 1975, all Soviet, and now Russian submarines have up to 10 surface-to-air missiles with surface launch. And they work out their application. In Russia, everyone knows this. And this is not suicide, because of the acoustic coatings of boats, it is difficult to hit them with rockets. Therefore, the boat is always the first to shoot on airplanes.

ETR3(SS) 07-04-2017 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denis_469 (Post 2497465)
I did not set myself the goal of convincing anyone. It's not necessary to prove anything clever, but fools are useless. And in fact since 1975, all Soviet, and now Russian submarines have up to 10 surface-to-air missiles with surface launch. And they work out their application. In Russia, everyone knows this. And this is not suicide, because of the acoustic coatings of boats, it is difficult to hit them with rockets. Therefore, the boat is always the first to shoot on airplanes.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150416...ow/rus/971.htm This references the SA-N-8, but still need to surface to launch it. A surfaced submarine, regardless of weaponry, can be easily found and then attacked.

Carthaginian 07-04-2017 11:39 PM

Surfaced Sub, Dead Sub
 
Yeah... the Sovs have never been known for making the brightest decisions regarding "teh missulz fur e'rytingz."
Project 877 and 636.3 boats are among the most respected boats under the waves... but surfacing one to fire a MANPAD? If I was on that boat, the captain would be bleeding out of a .357" hole in the back of his head and our XO would have a very informal promotion ceremony. That is risking your boat and your crews' lives on a VERY small chance of success.

ikalugin 07-05-2017 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carthaginian (Post 2497526)
Yeah... the Sovs have never been known for making the brightest decisions regarding "teh missulz fur e'rytingz."
Project 877 and 636.3 boats are among the most respected boats under the waves... but surfacing one to fire a MANPAD? If I was on that boat, the captain would be bleeding out of a .357" hole in the back of his head and our XO would have a very informal promotion ceremony. That is risking your boat and your crews' lives on a VERY small chance of success.

MANPADS in this context have the same role as side arms for the crew.

ETR3(SS) 07-05-2017 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin (Post 2497662)
MANPADS in this context have the same role as side arms for the crew.

As in, you were forced to surface and it's a defensive weapon? That would make more sense I would think.

Kat Tsun 10-07-2017 11:25 AM

MANPADS on submarines are intended to protect them when they're doing this: http://www.ship-technology.com/uploa...z-convoy-l.jpg

They are not serious anti-helicopter weapons. They're more like anti-crop duster.

A contemporary anti-helicopter weapon for submarines (Ford SIAM) existed and was used to shoot down DASH drones in 1980-81 in captive launch tests. It would have been fired similar to a Harpoon or Tomahawk cruise missile, using a canister to reach the surface, and search for a target with an infrared seeker. It worked quite well, but the U.S. Navy didn't have the money for it at the time, so it sort of languished for a couple years until it died sometime in the mid '80s. This is the only practical anti-helicopter missile for submarines that could be in the game.

Another contemporary system would be the aforementioned periscope mounted missiles, which were carried by Soviet diesels for purposes of killing overly curious LAMPS. Periscope mounted missiles are slightly more serious than MANPADS, but only through the 1980s or so about, but the Soviets still made them for SSKs. The better solution would be an encapsulated missile like SIAM, since this wouldn't require the submarine to expose its periscope, but I guess the USSR really was a decade behind the West. Or maybe it was just contemporary with the Amphion's Blowpipe mast [i.e. from the 1970s]. India still has them on their Kilos and Russia probably does too.

Everything else was either dead as disco (SLAM) or not serious (MANPADS in the armory).

Gardiner.b 10-07-2017 02:28 PM

It is in Real world thanks to DCNS
 
DCNS has made a system for taking out ASW helos well submerged under water its attached to the mast
http://www.indiastrategic.in/image/DCNS2.jpg
http://www.indiastrategic.in/image/DCNS2.jpg

edjcox 10-23-2017 01:47 AM

Fiber Tow with AA
 
There is an experimental tow pack that can be deployed that sets behind about 2500 yds that allows remoted fiber link periscope views, infrasound sonar and passive RX, ESM and AA launch. The array is useable to 12 knots max. The onboard noisemaker if activated can serve as decoy for 30 minutes autonomously. Beats using the Sail sensor systems and in conjunction provides highly accurate ranging using infrared lasers.

If cut loose the tow pack is recoverable within a limited time but will self sink and destruct vital items after a set time.

The game has all manner of innovations, yet to fielded.

:ping:

Spartaner251 11-08-2017 06:42 AM

So one has to cross a SM2, a Tomahawk and an alarm missile from the brits to have a working/useful system?

Problem is, everytime you launch something to the surface, everyone has an easy time finding your submarine

XenonSurf 11-08-2017 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartaner251 (Post 2524166)
So one has to cross a SM2, a Tomahawk and an alarm missile from the brits to have a working/useful system?

Problem is, everytime you launch something to the surface, everyone has an easy time finding your submarine

When the enemy has a near-perfect TMA solution on you, then it makes no difference if you launch missiles and go flank afterwards. A working SAM solution would be undoubtly a good military asset even in a sub.

I think the reason why such SAM systems for subs were not followed-up (to public) is because of money reasons making them less necessary after the cold war.

ETR3(SS) 11-08-2017 05:29 PM

688: $900 million

Ka-25: $9 million (?)

FIM-92 Stinger: $38,000

Risking a $900 million platform, to take down a $9 million aircraft, is a good way to lose your $900 million platform.

Air assets do need to be reworked. The Soviets apparently have psychic pilots in their helos and MPAs.

Barleyman 11-08-2017 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS) (Post 2524257)
688: $900 million

Ka-25: $9 million (?)

FIM-92 Stinger: $38,000

Risking a $900 million platform, to take down a $9 million aircraft, is a good way to lose your $900 million platform.

Air assets do need to be reworked. The Soviets apparently have psychic pilots in their helos and MPAs.

Now if only real sub drivers could hear there's a helo nearby so they could pop up for that Igla shot before it's too late..

Anyways yes re:psychic patrol aircraft drivers. On the TLAM mission you can (will) have a bear following you dropping sonobuoys right on top of you after it runs out of ordnance.

XenonSurf 11-09-2017 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS) (Post 2524257)
688: $900 million

Ka-25: $9 million (?)

FIM-92 Stinger: $38,000

Risking a $900 million platform, to take down a $9 million aircraft, is a good way to lose your $900 million platform.

Air assets do need to be reworked. The Soviets apparently have psychic pilots in their helos and MPAs.

The US military was never terribly concerned about the costs when designing and putting alive an attack or defense system.
In your post you forget to compare risks for the sub if a plane is not shotdown and facing a lot of torpedos versus the chance for the sub to shoot down the plane and evade successfully.
The question is if such a mounted or VLT SAM system is efficient enough to have any good chance to accomplish its job, also the major concern is its total weight, any weight surplus is a no-go for a sub, having negative consequences for its max speed and manoeuver capability. Probably the weight aspect leads to dismiss such a solution.

But the reason why SAM systems on subs are futile is a very simple one: The days where subs act as lone wolfes near the surface are years past. The modern warfare tactics make subs act in a group of other surface vessels or carrier groups with far better SAM capability. And for SSBNs stealth is prime instead of stupidly attacking some overflying planes.

This 'Lone Wolf' tactics do very well fit in a game (see Microprose Stealth Fighter F-117 and other series) also because there is less work to do for the devs.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:00 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1995- 2020 Subsim