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-   -   surface to air (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=232066)

foz 12-29-2017 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shipkiller1 (Post 2533573)
These are my thoughts as one who did this for 24 years active duty and still designs, installs and repairs the Fire Control and Weapon Launching Systems.

There are always people who have never been on a submarine, know almost nothing about them except what they read in books or in there own imaginations, ask 'why can't we do this?'...

A couple of reasons.

Helos are just not that real of a threat in the real world. The capabilities of the airborn assets in the game are much too overstated.

Would an anti-air missile be nice? Sure.
But saying this and doing this are WAY too different things.

1. How do you keep the missile dry? This is much harder than it sounds.

2. How do you aim and launch it? This too is harder than is sounds.

3. Where do you put it? This is even harder than 1 and 2.

4. How many do you have? This goes along with no. 3.

5. Do you really need one?

I do not mean to be snarky but this thread is sterile conjecture.

I have been inside of a 500 yds. of hovering helos who were pinging away, and a helos who were passive (US, Soviet, UK, German etc...). We could see them but they had no contact... This was the norm.

The helos biggest asset is not detecting you and dropping a weapon. It just the threat of this action and maybe disrupting your approach. A mission kill is almost as good as a real kill.

The solution refinement of all the airborne assets in the game is just freaking amazing.. NEVER on their best day could they ever do that in real life.

Hell, the Soviet surface ships acoustic capabilities are WAYYYY to good also in the game.

But, at the end of the day, it is still just a freaking game.


Like shipkiller1 , said the airborne assets & surface ship capabilities are way too high .
Is there anyway to back this off , and yes it is just a game .
O and merry Christmas & a happy new year to one & all . :salute:

foz 01-11-2020 04:47 AM

NOW this looks good Sorry if i am abit late with this one.


SEA POWER - Naval Combat in the Missile Age

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=318

:salute:

Badger343rd 03-24-2020 10:56 AM

Short answer to OP question is yes...using epic mod.I knocked one out hounding me in an akula...it was sooooooo satisfying

XenonSurf 03-26-2020 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shipkiller1 (Post 2533573)
These are my thoughts as one who did this for 24 years active duty and still designs, installs and repairs the Fire Control and Weapon Launching Systems.

There are always people who have never been on a submarine, know almost nothing about them except what they read in books or in there own imaginations, ask 'why can't we do this?'...

A couple of reasons.

Helos are just not that real of a threat in the real world. The capabilities of the airborn assets in the game are much too overstated.

Would an anti-air missile be nice? Sure.
But saying this and doing this are WAY too different things.

1. How do you keep the missile dry? This is much harder than it sounds.

2. How do you aim and launch it? This too is harder than is sounds.

3. Where do you put it? This is even harder than 1 and 2.

4. How many do you have? This goes along with no. 3.

5. Do you really need one?

I do not mean to be snarky but this thread is sterile conjecture.

I have been inside of a 500 yds. of hovering helos who were pinging away, and a helos who were passive (US, Soviet, UK, German etc...). We could see them but they had no contact... This was the norm.

The helos biggest asset is not detecting you and dropping a weapon. It just the threat of this action and maybe disrupting your approach. A mission kill is almost as good as a real kill.

The solution refinement of all the airborne assets in the game is just freaking amazing.. NEVER on their best day could they ever do that in real life.

Hell, the Soviet surface ships acoustic capabilities are WAYYYY to good also in the game.

But, at the end of the day, it is still just a freaking game.


You sound convincing with your 5 points, I too am thinking that AA weapons on a stealth asset like a submarine are out-of-place, for only one: They take considerable weight to lower the sub performance, but what do you do with the pictures in the posts above, do you simply ignore them for the sake of your arguments? Fact is at least Russian military found it smart enough to install SAMs on their subs. I highly doubt they do it today, the problems - if so - haven't changed. The solution to this problem is called 'Joint Operations' involving different army assets.


As for the overwhelming asset powers in the game, well, it has to be so to give entertainment to the player...The real thing would be boring 99% of the time with 1% action only.





XS
:Kaleun_Cheers:

partycat 04-27-2020 07:32 PM

Actually it would be nice to shoot down that psycic choppa keep shadowing me. Also this game is more like an alone hunter. They don't install SAMs on the todays subs because they don't send them alone for hunting. There are ships with far better SAMs that can be used against hostile aircrafts.

But since we don't have such ships in this game, would be nice to have SAMs.

shipkiller1 04-27-2020 09:06 PM

One of the issues with Surface Forces operating with Submarines is that the Submarines are far away from the Surface Forces (except in piece time operations). This is by design because 'Blue on Blue' is a real likelihood. There is no way for the friendly Surface (and Helos) to know that the submerged contact they are attempting to prosecute is Blue or Red, so everything is treated as Hostile, and no, the submarine cannot just come to PD and radio.. Things happen much to fast. In war time, the Helos will be shooting first, then asking questions later.
Having a Blue SSN in close proximity, would add that much more hesitation for the ASW commander of the surface group, attempting to make sure the contact is Blue and not Red, and if the the contact is Red, they might hesitate too long.....



U.S. SSN's are designed and trained to operate alone.

Bilge_Rat 04-28-2020 08:07 AM

As someone mentioned, this is a game, not a RL problem.

In RL, ASW is a very real problem for NATO. A SSN moving at 10-15 knots is hard to detect and can quickly get clear from the combat zone. In actual naval exercises, you had instances where NATO diesel subs were able to sneak in and out of US Task forces without being detected. NATO air ASW assets have a very difficult time trying to detect NATO subs even when hunting in a defined exercise area.

The sound environment iin CW is alot simpler than RL and the sonar capabilities of all assets is better than RL. This is not just a CW problem, Dangerous Waters was the same. If you look at actual patrol reports of US subs from the 60s to 90s (those that are publicly available of course), you see many instances where Russian subs were only detected when within 500-1,000 yds and could not be tracked much farther out. BTW, that was the reason why the Russian claim that the KURSK sinking was the result of a collision with a NATO sub was plausible, the area where the sinking occurred is known to have a very difficult sound environment.

Now good news is that you can tweak the sonar capabilities of assets and the sound environment to be closer to RL. I have been doing it to my game. The tradeoff though is that you will be spending a lot of time just staring at a blank map. :ping:

feld 06-05-2020 11:43 PM

Sorry for the necro...
 
"Now good news is that you can tweak the sonar capabilities of assets and the sound environment to be closer to RL. I have been doing it to my game. The tradeoff though is that you will be spending a lot of time just staring at a blank map."

I mean...for 23 years I either stared at a blank map, a bunch of gauges, or a pile of paperwork ... I can probably handle staring at a blank map in a game :)


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