don't tell russia, an S300 or S200 SAM system on a sub, just put somewhere on a coast of a nation you want to make a nonflying zone ...

Good luck fitting that on a sub. Good luck keeping that sub alive for very long too.

Occasionally I wind up having a helicopter dogging me after I've sunk everything in play and it's dropped all it's weapons, keeping me from leaving the area even though it can't actually do anything to me.

Would be nice to have someone go out on the sail with a M16 and put a few rounds into his windscreen to get him to buzz off. Or just have the AI realize he's out of weapons and start focusing on more important matters, like getting as close to land as possible before his fuel runs out.

The US Submarine force is still a 'lone wolf' force. We have just had to integrate our operations with the surface guys in the last 20 or so years. Mainly due to TLAM.

Still, better than 80% of all deployed US submarines are independent operators. It just depends on where they going to be operating.

since ESSM and SM-2/3 are VLS launched, it seems like it could be theoretically possible to retrofit onto a VLS equipped boat, but you run into problems with the guidance, both of those missiles are designed to be used with AEGIS/SPY-1 radars, which are way more sophisticated than the little surface search radar mast.

I forget who, but someone just got another nickel.

😀

Probably me. :doh:

Someone mentioned, "If I had a nickel for every time someone mentioned surface to air capabilities..."

I just forgot who.

These are my thoughts as one who did this for 24 years active duty and still designs, installs and repairs the Fire Control and Weapon Launching Systems.

There are always people who have never been on a submarine, know almost nothing about them except what they read in books or in there own imaginations, ask 'why can't we do this?'...

A couple of reasons.

Helos are just not that real of a threat in the real world. The capabilities of the airborn assets in the game are much too overstated.

Would an anti-air missile be nice? Sure.
But saying this and doing this are WAY too different things.

1. How do you keep the missile dry? This is much harder than it sounds.

2. How do you aim and launch it? This too is harder than is sounds.

3. Where do you put it? This is even harder than 1 and 2.

4. How many do you have? This goes along with no. 3.

5. Do you really need one?

I do not mean to be snarky but this thread is sterile conjecture.

I have been inside of a 500 yds. of hovering helos who were pinging away, and a helos who were passive (US, Soviet, UK, German etc...). We could see them but they had no contact... This was the norm.

The helos biggest asset is not detecting you and dropping a weapon. It just the threat of this action and maybe disrupting your approach. A mission kill is almost as good as a real kill.

The solution refinement of all the airborne assets in the game is just freaking amazing.. NEVER on their best day could they ever do that in real life.

Hell, the Soviet surface ships acoustic capabilities are WAYYYY to good also in the game.

But, at the end of the day, it is still just a freaking game.

(Someone got another nickel) :D

Like shipkiller1 , said the airborne assets & surface ship capabilities are way too high .
Is there anyway to back this off , and yes it is just a game .
O and merry Christmas & a happy new year to one & all . :salute:

NOW this looks good Sorry if i am abit late with this one.


SEA POWER - Naval Combat in the Missile Age

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=318

:salute:

Short answer to OP question is yes...using epic mod.I knocked one out hounding me in an akula...it was sooooooo satisfying

You sound convincing with your 5 points, I too am thinking that AA weapons on a stealth asset like a submarine are out-of-place, for only one: They take considerable weight to lower the sub performance, but what do you do with the pictures in the posts above, do you simply ignore them for the sake of your arguments? Fact is at least Russian military found it smart enough to install SAMs on their subs. I highly doubt they do it today, the problems - if so - haven't changed. The solution to this problem is called 'Joint Operations' involving different army assets.


As for the overwhelming asset powers in the game, well, it has to be so to give entertainment to the player...The real thing would be boring 99% of the time with 1% action only.





XS
:Kaleun_Cheers:

Actually it would be nice to shoot down that psycic choppa keep shadowing me. Also this game is more like an alone hunter. They don't install SAMs on the todays subs because they don't send them alone for hunting. There are ships with far better SAMs that can be used against hostile aircrafts.

But since we don't have such ships in this game, would be nice to have SAMs.

One of the issues with Surface Forces operating with Submarines is that the Submarines are far away from the Surface Forces (except in piece time operations). This is by design because 'Blue on Blue' is a real likelihood. There is no way for the friendly Surface (and Helos) to know that the submerged contact they are attempting to prosecute is Blue or Red, so everything is treated as Hostile, and no, the submarine cannot just come to PD and radio.. Things happen much to fast. In war time, the Helos will be shooting first, then asking questions later.
Having a Blue SSN in close proximity, would add that much more hesitation for the ASW commander of the surface group, attempting to make sure the contact is Blue and not Red, and if the the contact is Red, they might hesitate too long.....



U.S. SSN's are designed and trained to operate alone.

As someone mentioned, this is a game, not a RL problem.

In RL, ASW is a very real problem for NATO. A SSN moving at 10-15 knots is hard to detect and can quickly get clear from the combat zone. In actual naval exercises, you had instances where NATO diesel subs were able to sneak in and out of US Task forces without being detected. NATO air ASW assets have a very difficult time trying to detect NATO subs even when hunting in a defined exercise area.

The sound environment iin CW is alot simpler than RL and the sonar capabilities of all assets is better than RL. This is not just a CW problem, Dangerous Waters was the same. If you look at actual patrol reports of US subs from the 60s to 90s (those that are publicly available of course), you see many instances where Russian subs were only detected when within 500-1,000 yds and could not be tracked much farther out. BTW, that was the reason why the Russian claim that the KURSK sinking was the result of a collision with a NATO sub was plausible, the area where the sinking occurred is known to have a very difficult sound environment.

Now good news is that you can tweak the sonar capabilities of assets and the sound environment to be closer to RL. I have been doing it to my game. The tradeoff though is that you will be spending a lot of time just staring at a blank map. :ping:

Sorry for the necro...
 

"Now good news is that you can tweak the sonar capabilities of assets and the sound environment to be closer to RL. I have been doing it to my game. The tradeoff though is that you will be spending a lot of time just staring at a blank map."

I mean...for 23 years I either stared at a blank map, a bunch of gauges, or a pile of paperwork ... I can probably handle staring at a blank map in a game :)

CW time to take out chopper.
 

Perhaps one could simply design a type XXI German submarine put it into the game, then when the chopper is near surface and use the anti aircraft guns to shoot it down, and if you lucky you can knock it out of the sky before they toss a torpedo at your sub?? If would be challenging to use a type XXI sub with a snorkel, rubber coating, and mod the speed up...... the question is not how authentic it would be (if that is the case why mod anything) but would it work? Can the choppers be made to be shot out of the sky?

I think i have commented on this, perhaps on another thread, and even though this post is roughly a year old ( since the last reply ) ill go ahead and add my .02 just in case the user is still wondering about anti aircraft solutions for the game itself.


The EPIC mod, which is a kick ass mod and pretty much the big mod most players user if they use mods, has this capability.


How to get the weapon itself ( a manpad pretty much ) its fairly easy but allows for your sub to get targeted and hit by any surface ship within firing range ( which is an extremely huge range.. sometimes the surface ships firing at you, and can hit you and damage you very effectively, are dots on the horizon, sometimes not even that. Since large surface ships of todays navy ( and im assuming if you play some of the older subs those surface ships can hit targets miles away, can do the same ).


Regardless, you have to surface in order to use this weapon. I really wish you could mod, or they could include a weapon that is either tube launched, or launched via the VLS system, that would launch an anti aircraft missile that would take care of the threat. Im sure nowdays, there most likely is a weapon that subs have, albeit used rarely if ever, that could attack any air vehicle. I think the biggest thing would be targeting/aquiring for the targeting computer, etc.


Anyways, if you have the EPIC mod installed, simply surface your sub, and then raise the ESM and Radar Masts. This will allow whatever triggers the mod has built in in order to aquire the target.


There is a bar in the upper left hand corner of the screen that shows how close you are to target, and more importantly, how visible you are to them. Once that bar gets totally full ( red in color ), you will be close enough for your sub and the manpad located in the sail, to aquire and launch a missile.


After the bar is red, it takes a bit of time, but not a ton. Maybe a minute or less depending on your speed and how long youve been on the surface. But again, if the bar is completely red, you are in the range of the target and the sub will automatically aquire and launch a surface to air missile. It will shoot out of your sail and there is no like animation or anything to show the missile until it fires.


Once it fires, it will automatically lock on to whatever helicopter or plane that is close enough, track and destroy the air asset. It will continue to do this as long as the bar is red and there are targets it can aquire and hit within its firing range ( which more or less is the red bar ).


I sort of play a mini game using this weapon. It doesnt have an ammo count, so ammo is unlimited ( i havent ever ran out of ammo of these anti aircraft missiles, and there is no way to load them at port with other ammo, nor does it get damage as far as i can tell. I might not work if you take damage in your sail or some other area of the sub, however thats never happened to me so i cant say if it takes damage and doesnt work in any scenario. ).


That said, ill sink all the targets i have around me, and if they battle group is big enough, they will have helicopters and planes working with the battle group to hunt you down. Once the surface group is all destroyed/burning/sinking or whatever, these air assets will continue to do what they do. Hunt you. Ive, before i had this mod and its capability for air defense, been chased around the map relentlessly and actually been damaged and sunk.. rarely but it happens to the best of us.


Ill surface, raise the esm and radar masts, and then try and locate the air assets by looking at the map and seeing where they are dropping sonarbuoys.


Once i sorta know where they are, by using cameras, launching a few missiles and then going to the aircrafts camera and looking for smoke trails, or using the sonarbuoy icons on the map, will drive my sub to where i think they are. Once im close enough, ill surface and raise the masts, and shoot down the helos and planes.


Usually there are 2 or 3 helos max, and a plane. I dont think ive ever seen 2 planes, but usually there is 3-4 air assets of combined helos and aircraft.


Once i down one, i can use its burning wreck as sort of a marker and look at the aircrafts camera to see where that smoke is, and then do this again. Rinse and Repeat. Its sort of a cool minigame, and one i enjoy because the air assets can be a real nuisance.


So, download and install the epic mod. Enjoy everything it brings to the game, as well as this nice little addition that evens the scales a little bit and gives you an out in terms of air assets that will hunt you and give no quarter.


So, sink all the ships you see and then go after the air. Or, if you got the guts, surface during an engagement if the air asset is close enough to you and dropping sonar buoys on you followed most likely by torpedos, and smoke those bogeys.


Fair Seas.