Playable destroyers??
 

Last saturday I got a mail from onkel Neal announcing Wolfpack Single Player mode, but the thing that really got my attention was this sentence "and that Holy Grail of all u-boat sims--playable destroyers for massive player vs player convoy battles"

This not only got my attention but got me really excited :subsim:

I know the sim is still in early access and that this possibility is nowhere near yet however I have tried to find in the forum any mention about playable destroyers and I have found nothing of relevance on this sense (maybe I have missed it)

Is there any information about the plans regarding playable destroyers available?
Will this be within Wolfpack or it would be another sim that can "connect" with Wolfpack as we did with SH2 and DC.
Would we have only playable destroyers or also corvette like the Flower class?

Any info is more than welcomed! :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

yes, i got it too ....thought allready nobody would ask that, but now there is a very good chance that this dream come true as the dev´s are very close to us !

btw, can you renember project "Messerwetzer" :arrgh!:

regarding discussions about additional rooms, i want mine on a sloop or destroyer, bridge/radio and step down sonar room, this will add a huge gameplay element, the escort-sim itself and of course pvp.


...hmmm where did i put this table which give you u-boat`s dept, when the active sonar breaks up while approaching it slowly, that with this this special angel hmmh... :D

i realy hope for huge sales so more man power could help, there is so much to do first.

Honestly, I have very little interest in U-boat only simulations, as I have a personal aversion to playing Kriegsmarine only. For some reason, Allied and even other nations like Italy often get overlooked in simulations. All this to say, I have been standing off from Wolfpack until the recent announcement reference playable destroyers. Ever since Destroyer Command, I've been waiting for another good surface combatant simulation, and if Wolfpack can get there and really simulate both sides of the Battle of the Atlantic I'd support it 100%.

Standing by for details, but if this is a serious effort I'll be buying in.

I will probably not make any friends here with this statement, but I'd rather have the team to focus the available non-infinite resources on perfecting the U-Boat simulation instead of adding playable surface vessels resulting in a half-baked neither-is-perfect tries-to-be-everything game.

I'm also dreaming of such a game, but I'd rather get one aspect finished than an overpromising feature-creep "Marine Citizen" game.

Agree with PeterS!

Yeah, it's not on the roadmap. So don't count on it. It's great that someone is doing the prep-work in modeling (escort channel in Wolfpack Discord). But there is a looooooooong way to go before this is going to be added.

Well if onkel Neal mentioned "playable destroyers" on his mail I guess it is because there are plans for this to happen. Long term plans, for sure, but I give it all credibility.

I have been here for long time and played most subsim sims available however I do not remeber more exciting times for the comunity than when we had SHII and Destroyer Command and we played really exciting battles with teams of human destroyers and submarines. It was our "happy Times season"
We even had tournaments and a lot of activities and flotillas participating in activities.
For me battles againts the IA are simply boring, after a few missions, you got it figured it out and it is no longer atractive. However in sims like SHII vs DC or in Dangerous Waters when you are fighting against smart and skilled humans you are in a different game.
I have no rush for this, I have been in dry dock for long and can wait but knowing that we may have playable destroyers here makes all the difference to me.
Like Neal said "Holy Grail of all u-boat sims--playable destroyers for massive player vs player convoy battles"
Cannot get better and it is worth the wait :Kaleun_Salute:

I would use playable destroyer . For those people that dont like team play for what ever reason . Join in a multiplayer session as one of the already AI destoyers . Basically single player mode on a destroyer but in a multiplayer session .

...well i dont fear the nagger`s :Kaleun_Cheers: but would think they just fear a dangerous opponent :timeout:

As I have already mentioned I am not much fun of sims where you only fight against the IA, however I have decided to support Wolfpack and purchased it.

It will be interesting to try multicrew in the sub and I will patiently waiting for the playable surface escorts.

I just first need to learn how to operate in the new U-boat :)

Thanks for your support, that's a big help towards continued development.

I am completely in favour of playable destroyers/corvettes, but as important in my view will be progressive damage and disorder within the U-boat, so fused electrics, blown light-bulbs, smashed instrumentation, reparable leaks and so forth. I'd particularly like to see a prolonged period of difficulties countering visible flooding leading to sinking excepting where catastrophic damage occurs from ramming or a near direct depth-charge hit. I also miss the German speech that SH3 used to have, and the sometimes prolonged periods evading escorts.

You certain? :ping:

May be Christmas will come early this year Human Controlled Escorts

and A Mission Editor for Wolfpack best Christmas ever

I went by the image officially called the roadmap. And the progress of KojiMori in the Discord #Escort channel. But I will admit I didn't read the email that you sent (announcement of solo-play update) well enough. That pretty much is a promise alright. :up:

In the interests of getting human operated corvettes/destroyers out as soon as possible, I think a three pass development cycle would help:

Pass 1: Creation of 2 generic "rooms" or even just 2 views, one for Asdic with a fire-button for depth-charges (and a switch for selecting the pattern?) and an open wheelhouse with telegraph, operable rudder, compass, and a slightly raised lookout position. Gunnery could be left to the AI initially, and likewise lookout "botted" if not actively crewed.

Pass 2: Add proper lookout positions and optics, more fully rendered "rooms" for the Asdic and Radar operators, and wheelhouse, and a further bottable position at the stern and bow to fuse and release/fire depth-charges and hedgehogs (if fitted)

Pass 3: The final development pass could introduce player controlled gunnery plus changing superstructure for hedgehog or radar-equipped boats. Creation of 2 or more bridge rooms appropriate for corvettes (open) and destroyers (closed). Ideally some form of near real-time plain language communication would be useful, between escorts and convoy, and between escorts would be useful, so one escort can "hold" the U-boat on Asdic whilst others prosecute attacks.

Interesting. Here's a question though, if one has a perfectly modelled u-boat sim, and docile merchants, but predictable escorting, do you really still have a perfectly modelled sim?

I would argue not. If you know not where an escort may move next, at what speed, and if it detects you, how long it will persist with the hunt and what depths the pistols on the charges will be set to - then you have gone a long way towards the perfect sim.

In other words, the best possible U-boat sim must incorporate human controlled escorts, or an exceedingly good AI. I imagine the former is rather easier, and it had the added bonus of the PVP dimension...

I've found it interesting recently to consider the possible roles and organisation on playable escorts. It seems fairly obvious that as far as practical, these should be organised along very similar lines, with a few additions and omissions, to those on the U-boats. The advantages being that players are already familiar with them, and therefore if you like playing one on the U-boat you'll enjoy the same on the ship and vice versa.

So, I think we'd "need":

Convoy commander:
Sets intitial disposition of AI escorts, the correct station of which remaining visible to human players who subsequently take-over escorts as captains. Can detach some, but not all, escorts to prosecute dc attacks, and or call them back. Sets overall speed of convoy to speed of slowest ship. Sets intervals heading changes, which AI merchants and AI escorts follow. Human controlled escorts are shown on map where at any instant they should be to follow commanded zig-zag path? CC can also change the positions of AI merchants to fill "holes" in the convoy if ships are lost. Such ships fill in from the rear of the convoy, and can only do so in the event of a sinking. This prevents continuous reorganisation being employed as an exploit to keep ships on unpredicatable heading changes.

Captain - decision maker as on the U-boat, being fed information from various sources. Authorises searchlight use. Has authority to ring DC Klaxon independent of DC officer?

Helmsman, almost exactly the same as per U-boat but fed information from asdic operator so as to bring escort over the top of asdic contact or as directed by captain. Also able to adopt a pre-programmed "lost contact" set of manoeuvres/telegraph speeds to help asdic operator reacquire the U-boat.

Asdic operator/Hydrophone operator. As these two roles are mutually exclusive, it seems sensible to combine them so a human player can do one or t'other. Early asdics purely aural, later with graphical trace and still later with depth trace (slant-range). Has "simultaneous echo" bell, the sound of which alerts DC officer to drop charges. Captain (alone) may also, independently, ring the bell, to allow for non-standard routine, allowing him to bet on which way the U-boat may turn during evasion period of DC attack.
(we don't want the situation where escort crews are compelled to drop DC's at 'simultaneous echo' ensuring a miss provided that the U-boat crew evade at full-speed/hard rudder over, at "splashes".)

DC operator. Hears bell, hits klaxon button, causing some or all dc weapons, be they over the back, squids, (hedgehogs fired separately), to fire. Alerts captain when all reloaded. DC must fuse all DC's 30 seconds before launch to depth ordered by captain or asdic officer. Such depths are in bands A, B, C and so forth which relate to depth intervals, the charges exploding somewhere within the band set.

Lookouts. During day operate binoculars, serve as gun-crews as applicable. At night operate searchlights at direction of captain.

Guns: Operates principal (front) main armament, and has range-finding optics. Other players may man rear turrets if available, being fed range as per Gun's rangefinder value. Used exclusively for U-boats caught on, or compelled to, the surface.

Radio Operator
Liases with other escorts, if Convoy commander exists on his ship, transmits his orders via signal lamp/morse. Any lookout with eyes on another escort using signal lamps causes meaning to arrive on signal log, in similar manner to radio messages arriving in the U-boat log. Recieves DF plots from UK of the "4 U-boats thought to be in your area" variety, and can locally DF transmitting U-boats with a single bearing if he acquires and monitors the correct wavelength. If U-boats sending unencrypted, he receives as plain language, if not, merely the cypher-text.

Navigator/ Has charted plot of convoy, automatically overlain with zig-zag paths and positions of escorts. Advises Convoy commander of nearest escorts to detach for DC attacks. In all likelihood it would be unusual to detach corvettes because of their limited speed.

So much for the positions on escorts.

Other thoughts:
1. DC's should be limited, but great in number.

2. Explosion of DC's should make asdic unreliable, increasingly with every dc dropped, for time taken for water to de-aerate, so broadly speaking, if you continuously drop charges deep in a single area, it will become harder to discriminate clear return echoes, and will persist longer with depth of detonation.

3. Explosion of DC's should confer vertical control difficulties to U-boats, possibly causing inadvertent surfacing. Any human crewed escort's guns must be crewed to open fire, else AI fires star-shells in general area if at night.

4. Destruction of U-boat to bring air, small to large oil patch and flotsam to surface. Non-lethal damage to U-boat may create small oil-trail to appear, eventually, on surface. U-boat captain may fire flotsam, air and oil to attempt to fool the escort above, which may work if he's undetected during the escorts "lost contact" asdic search.

5. Consideration should be given to more progressive and nuanced damage-model to U-boats, so that they experience (typically) more and more dc's, but with less permament damage unless a near direct-hit is achieved. The aim being to give the crew below a lot to contend with to keep the boat under-control, and not broached or sunk to crush-depth. It might be a nice feature for both U-boat crews and escorts to see a playable film post-mission, showing the dc's exploding as they were dropped during the game, with the ability to "step into" either escort or U-boat to experience the action from either point of vie; post game. Post viewing, these could be converted to a viewable film, or, as a file playable within an installed copy of Wolfpack, so we could all have a laugh about who we were sure we'd sunk but who wriggled away, or the "fluke" hit we achieved. Or indeed the teamwork within the U-boat to contend with all the problems the dc attacks were causing!

Evidently this is a more or less complete "wish-list", I'd be interested to hear what people think, and what other wrinkles they can think of I've overlooked, beyond ruining the poor dev's vacation plans!

Very good analysis, very useful. I've had destroyer experience with Iron Wolves, Enigma and Destroyer Command and playing against human sub players one on one. Constituting a destroyer with 5 players and managing the roles and activities is going to be an interesting puzzle.

Thanks, I think it would be fascinating and a very "personal" combat. A couple more points come to mind to tweak the above.

The bands of depth settable by DC officer should not, early war, be capable of being set with precision to attain depths towards 200m, as it was not known, or forseen, how deep U-boats could go. What historically, they could be set to when, can of course be researched. There was a "work-around" by which the aperture admitting ambient water-pressure to the fuse was "soaped", which allowed DC's to sink further before exploding. So, perhaps in early war you could have A, B and C settings, with "soaped" providing a deeper band, but with greater vertical extent within the band, essentially making it less accurate. Mid and late war, you might have A, B, C, D, where the D band is deeper but more precise.

Regarding the Convoy commander being able to "zig-zag" the convoy course. Again research is needed to establish how and under what circumstances this occurred. For example, plainly there needs to be hard limits on the frequency, duration and interval of such course changes. It's reasonable to suppose (although I don't know) that a pre-arranged large convoy course change occurred in the event of a torpedo impact. Likewise that zig-zags were performed alternating port and starboard, so that a mean general course was achieved. Play-testing would need to occur to define within what angular limits, how frequently and the minimum interval between Zig and Zag so to speak.

If the player position of "Convoy commander" was instituted, provision would need to be made to transfer the role to a different escort in the event of "his" ship being sunk.

Regarding Hydrophones on Escorts. I think as well as the usual hearable sounds emanating from U-boats, as currently modelled, it might be interesting to revisit the re-loading of torpedoes, so that this too makes noise, especially when winches are in use, and can be suspended in the event that the u-boat goes "all quiet". The Silent Hunter III method for this worked well.