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-   -   T34 vs Tiger- Kursk 1943 coming soon! (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=158301)

Freiwillige 12-01-2009 12:16 AM

I too have several models. a 1\48th Panther a 1\48th Tiger AusfE

A remote control Tiger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pePhuQspnzs

A Vw Kubelwagen etc.

ZeeWolf 12-01-2009 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freiwillige (Post 1211583)
I too have several models. a 1\48th Panther a 1\48th Tiger AusfE

A remote control Tiger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pePhuQspnzs

A Vw Kubelwagen etc.

Your RC tiger looks good, I think you'll like these as well :yep:
It will be in TvT some day too.

ZeeWolf

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...igerE1_SO1.jpg

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k..._1943_3d_1.jpg

Freiwillige 12-01-2009 02:47 AM

Yes your work is beyond words. I love the new early tigers and I have seen many photo's of Tiger# S01. It is famous I think. The Kursk markings are neat too with the mischievous monkey. That is one of the SS panzer divisions but I cannot remember off hand if it is Das Reich, Leibstandarte or Totenkopf.

I will leave you all with this.....From WWII magazine Feb 1998

KURSK Reconsidered, Germany's lost victory?

Prochorovka is one of the best-known of the many battles on the Eastern Front during World War II. It has been covered in articles, books and televised historical documentaries, but these accounts vary in accuracy; some are merely incomplete, while others border on fiction. In the generally accepted version of the battle, the three SS divisions attacked Prochorovka shoulder to shoulder, jammed into the terrain between the Psel and the railroad. A total of 500 to 700 German tanks, including dozens of Panzerkampfwagen Mark V Panther medium tanks with 75mm guns and Panzerkampfwagen Mark VI Tiger heavy tanks with deadly 88mm cannons, lumbered forward while hundreds of nimble Soviet T-34 medium tanks raced into the midst of the SS armor and threw the Germans into confusion. The Soviets closed with the panzers, negating the Tigers’ 88mm guns, outmaneuvered the German armor and knocked out hundreds of German tanks. The Soviet tank force’s audacious tactics resulted in a disastrous defeat for the Germans, and the disorganized SS divisions withdrew, leaving 400 destroyed tanks behind, including between 70 and 100 Tigers and many Panthers. Those losses smashed the SS divisions’ fighting power, and as a result Hoth’s Fourth Panzer Army had no chance to achieve even a partial victory in the south.


While it makes a dramatic story, nearly all of this battle scenario is essentially myth. Careful study of the daily tank strength reports and combat records of II SS Panzer Corps–available on microfilm at the National Archives in Washington, D.C.–provides information that forces a historical reappraisal of the battle. These records show, first of all, that Hausser’s corps began with far fewer tanks than previously believed and, more important, that they suffered only moderate losses on July 12, 1943. As those reports were intended to allow the corps commander to assess the combat strength of his divisions, they can be considered reasonably accurate. Considering that information, it seems that the Germans may have been near a limited success on the southern flank of the salient.



The number of SS tanks actually involved in the battle has been variously reported as high as 700 by some authorities, while others have estimated between 300 to 600. Even before the Battle of Kursk began, however, the II SS Panzer Corps never had 500 tanks, much less 700. On July 4, the day before Operation Citadel was launched, Hausser’s three divisions possessed a total of 327 tanks between them, plus a number of command tanks. By July 11, the II SS Panzer Corps had a total of 211 operational tanks–Totenkopf had 94 tanks, Leibstandarte had only 56 and Das Reich possessed just 61. Damaged tanks or tanks undergoing repairs are not listed. Only 15 Tiger tanks were still in action at Prochorovka, and there were no SS Panthers available. The battalions that were equipped with Panthers were still training in Germany in July 1943.
On July 13, the day after the Battle of Prochorovka, Fourth Panzer Army reports declared that the II SS Panzer Corps had 163 operational tanks, a net loss of only 48 tanks. Actual losses were somewhat heavier, the discrepancy due to the gain of repaired tanks returned to action. Closer study of the losses of each type of tank reveals that the corps lost about 70 tanks on July 12. In contrast, Soviet tank losses, long assumed to be moderate, were actually catastrophic. In 1984, a history of the Fifth Guards Tank Army written by Rotmistrov himself revealed that on July 13 the army lost 400 tanks to repairable damage. He gave no figure for tanks that were destroyed or not available for salvage. Evidence suggests that there were hundreds of additional Soviet tanks lost. Several German accounts mention that Hausser had to use chalk to mark and count the huge jumble of 93 knocked-out Soviet tanks in the Leibstandarte sector alone. Other Soviet sources say the tank strength of the army on July 13 was 150 to 200, a loss of about 650 tanks. Those losses brought a caustic rebuke from Josef Stalin. Subsequently, the depleted Fifth Guards Tank Army did not resume offensive action, and Rotmistrov ordered his remaining tanks to dig in among the infantry positions west of the town.
Another misconception about the battle is the image of all three SS divisions attacking shoulder to shoulder through the narrow lane between the Psel and the rail line west of Prochorovka. Only Leibstandarte was aligned directly west of the town, and it was the only division to attack the town itself. The II SS Panzer Corps zone of battle, contrary to the impression given in many accounts, was approximately nine miles wide, with Totenkopf on the left flank, Leibstandarte in the center and Das Reich on the right flank. Totenkopf’s armor was committed primarily to the Psel bridgehead and in defensive action against Soviet attacks on the Psel bridges. In fact, only Leibstandarte actually advanced into the corridor west of Prochorovka, and then only after it had thrown back initial Soviet attacks.
Early on July 12, Leibstandarte units reported a great deal of loud motor noise, which indicated massing Soviet armor. Soon after 5 a.m., hundreds of Soviet tanks, carrying infantry, rolled out of Prochorovka and its environs in groups of 40 to 50. Waves of T-34 and T-70 tanks advanced at high speed in a charge straight at the startled Germans. When machine-gun fire, armor-piercing shells and artillery fire struck the T-34s, the Soviet infantry jumped off and sought cover. Leaving their infantry behind, the T-34s rolled on. Those Soviet tanks that survived the initial clash with SS armor continued a linear advance and were destroyed by the Germans.
When the initial Soviet attack paused, Leibstandarte pushed its armor toward the town and collided with elements of Rotmistrov’s reserve armor. A Soviet attack by the 181st Tank Regiment was defeated by several SS Tigers, one of which, the 13th (heavy) Company of the 1st SS Panzer Regiment, was commanded by 2nd Lt. Michael Wittmann, the most successful tank commander of the war. Wittmann’s group was advancing in flank support of the German main attack when it was engaged by the Soviet tank regiment at long range. The Soviet charge, straight at the Tigers over open ground, was suicidal. The frontal armor of the Tiger was impervious to the 76mm guns of the T-34s at any great distance. The field was soon littered with burning T-34s and T-70s. None of the Tigers were lost, but the 181st Tank Regiment was annihilated. Late in the day, Rotmistrov committed his last reserves, elements of the V Mechanized Corps, which finally halted Leibstandarte.
Das Reich began its attack from several kilometers southwest of Prochorovka and was quickly engaged by aggressive battle groups of the II Tank Corps and II Guards Tank Corps. Fierce, somewhat confused fighting broke out all along the German division’s axis of advance. Battle groups of 20 to 40 Soviet tanks, supported by infantry and ground-attack planes, collided with Das Reich regimental spearheads. Rotmistrov continued to throw armor against the division, and combat raged throughout the day, with heavy losses of Soviet armor. Das Reich continued to push slowly eastward, advancing into the night while suffering relatively light tank losses.


Meanwhile, on the left flank, Soviet First Tank Army elements unsuccessfully tried to crush Totenkopf’s bridgehead. The SS division fought off the XXXI and X Tank Corps, supported by elements of the XXXIII Rifle Corps. In spite of the Soviet attacks, Totenkopf’s panzer group drove toward a road that ran from the village of Kartaschevka, southeast across the river and into Prochorovka.
The fighting, characterized by massive losses of Soviet armor, continued throughout July 12 without a decisive success by either side–contrary to the accounts given in many well-known studies of the Eastern Front, which state that the fighting ended on July 12 with a decisive German defeat. These authors describe the battlefield as littered with hundreds of destroyed German tanks and report that the Soviets overran the SS tank repair units. In fact, the fighting continued around Prochorovka for several more days. Das Reich continued to push slowly eastward in the area south of the town until July 16. That advance enabled the III Panzer Corps to link up with the SS division on July 14 and encircle several Soviet rifle divisions south of Prochorovka. Totenkopf eventually reached the Kartaschevka*Prochorovka road, and the division took several tactically important hills on the north edge of its perimeter as well. Those successes were not exploited, however, due to decisions made by Adolf Hitler.
After receiving the news of the Allied invasion of Sicily, as well as reports of impending Soviet attacks on the Mius River and at Izyum, Hitler decided to cancel Operation Citadel. Manstein argued that he should be allowed to finish off the two Soviet tank armies. He had unused reserves, consisting of three experienced panzer divisions of XXIV Panzer Corps, in position for quick commitment. That corps could have been used to attack the Fifth Guards Tank Army in its flank, to break out from the Psel bridgehead or to cross the Psel east of Prochorovka. All of the available Soviet armor in the south was committed and could not be withdrawn without causing a collapse of the Soviet defenses. Manstein correctly realized that he had the opportunity to destroy the Soviet operational and strategic armor in the Prochorovka area.
Hitler could not be persuaded to continue the attack, however. Instead, he dispersed the divisions of the II SS Panzer Corps to deal with the anticipated Soviet diversionary attacks south of the Belgorod*Kharkov sector. On the night of July 17-18, the corps withdrew from its positions around Prochorovka. Thus, the battle for Prochorovka ended, not because of German tank losses (Hausser had over 200 operational tanks on July 17) but because Hitler lacked the will to continue the offensive. The SS panzer divisions were still full of fight; in fact, two of them continued to fight effectively in southern Russia for the rest of the summer.
Leibstandarte was ordered to Italy, but Das Reich and Totenkopf remained in the East. Those two divisions and the 3rd Panzer Division, which replaced Leibstandarte, were transferred to the Sixth Army area, where they conducted a counterattack from July 31 to August 2 that eliminated a strong Soviet bridgehead at the Mius River. Without pause, the three divisions were then transferred to the Bogodukhov sector in early August 1943. Under the command of the III Panzer Corps, they were joined by another unit, the Fifth SS Panzergrenadier Division Wiking. During three weeks of constant combat, the four divisions played a major role in stopping the main Soviet post-Kursk counteroffensive, Operation Rumyantsev. They fought Rotmistrov’s Fifth Guards Tank Army, rebuilt to 503 tanks strong, and major portions of the First Tank Army, now at 542 tanks.


By the end of the month, Rotmistrov had less than 100 tanks still running. Katukov had only 120 tanks still in action by the last week of August. While at no time did any of the German divisions have more than 55 tanks in operation, they repeatedly blunted the thrusts of the two Soviet tank armies, which were also reinforced by several rifle corps.
Totenkopf repeatedly cut off and defeated all of the First Tank Army’s thrusts toward the Kharkov*Poltava rail line. Das Reich threw back two Soviet tank corps south of Bogodukhov and blunted Rotmistrov’s last major attack west of Kharkov, and the III Panzer Corps halted Operation Rumyantsev.
After Kharkov itself fell, however, the German front gradually collapsed. The Soviets regrouped, committed additional strong reserves and renewed their attack toward the strategically important Dnepr River. Army Group South was subsequently forced to abandon much of southern Ukraine in a race for the safety of the Dnepr. Despite the remarkable efforts of the German army and Waffen SS panzer divisions during July and August, the Germans were too weak to hold the Kharkov*Belgorod*Poltava sector after their summer losses.
It is apparent from their operations during the late summer that the SS panzer divisions were not destroyed at Prochorovka. This reassessment of the battle provides food for thought regarding possible German successes if Manstein’s panzer reserves had been utilized as he had intended.
To what extent the course of events in Russia would have been changed is, of course, unknown, but it is interesting to speculate. If Army Group South’s panzer reserve had been used to encircle and destroy the Fifth Guards Tank Army and the First Tank Army, the outcome of the war in Russia might have been significantly different. Although it was beyond the German army’s capabilities to force a military end to the war by the summer of 1943, a limited victory in the south could have resulted in a delay of Soviet strategic operations for months or perhaps longer. It is doubtful, however, that this pause would have lasted long enough for the Germans to transfer enough forces to the West to defeat the June 6, 1944, D-Day invasion.
But one fact is beyond any question, regardless of the number of tanks possessed by the Germans or Soviets or what might have been possible. Due to Hausser’s panzer corps’ failure to take Prochorovka on July 12 and the subsequent misuse of German panzer reserves, the momentum of the Fourth Panzer Army was slowed dramatically. When Hitler abandoned Operation Citadel on July 13, the Germans’ last opportunity to influence events on a strategic level in the East was lost.
It is interesting that the information regarding German tank losses at Prochorovka has not been made available before now. Due to the lack of crucial primary-source information–especially the records of the II SS Panzer Corps on the Eastern Front–there had been no evidence to correct the erroneous accounts and impressions given in previous studies of the Eastern Front.
Waffen SS formations’ records of their Eastern Front operations were not declassified until 1978*1981. By that time, many of the major works about the Eastern Front had already been published. Later authors accepted the accounts of the battle as given in the earlier books and failed to conduct additional research. As a result, one of the best known of all Eastern Front battles has never been understood properly. Prochorovka was believed to have been a significant German defeat but was actually a stunning reversal for the Soviets because they suffered enormous tank losses.
As Manstein suggested, Prochorovka may truly have been a lost German victory, thanks to decisions made by Hitler. It was fortunate for the Allied cause that the German dictator, a foremost proponent of the value of will, lost his own will to fight in southern Ukraine in July 1943. Had he allowed Manstein to continue the attack on the two Soviet tank armies in the Prochorovka area, Manstein might have achieved a victory even more damaging to the Soviets than the counterattack that had recaptured Kharkov in March 1943.

ZeeWolf 12-01-2009 01:57 PM

New Marking Capibility
 
Just finished programing the ability to change Division
Markings for the history buffs. I plan to include signal
markings too in the same Markings file. So they can easily
be customized as well as new ones added to an endless library.

Work continues, :up:

ZeeWork


Gross Duetchland Div.
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...eenShot106.jpg

Das Riech
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...eenShot107.jpg

Standard No markings
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k...eenShot105.jpg

VAseMkIII 12-01-2009 03:10 PM

Dude fantastic work the historical anoraks will love this :yeah:

wating patiently for the release :D

and really luvin the daily screenshot tank porn you are givin us:woot:

Freiwillige 12-01-2009 05:28 PM

Yes your daily progress report is great. I check here more times daily than any other forum!:doh:

Alles Gut!

ZeeWolf 12-01-2009 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAseMkIII (Post 1211910)
Dude fantastic work the historical anoraks will love this :yeah:

wating patiently for the release :D

and really luvin the daily screenshot tank porn you are givin us:woot:

Awesome, "tank porn" :rotfl2:

ZeeWolf

ZeeWolf 12-01-2009 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freiwillige (Post 1212022)
Yes your daily progress report is great. I check here more times daily than any other forum!:doh:

Alles Gut!

It's moving right along too. Things seem to just fall into place :yep:

ZeeWolf

Freiwillige 12-01-2009 07:19 PM

I am very pleased to hear that. What did you think of my Kursk post? Insightful?

Anyways bring on the Tank Porn!

Also any plans for Russian Shermans?

ZeeWolf 12-01-2009 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freiwillige (Post 1212070)
I am very pleased to hear that. What did you think of my Kursk post? Insightful?

Anyways bring on the Tank Porn!

Also any plans for Russian Shermans?

Very insightful, however I was versed on that already. I suggest the
reading of the PDF file somewhere online:

MINE AND COUNTERMINE OPERATIONS
IN THE BATTLE OF KURSK

FINAL REPORT

25 APRIL 2000
The principal analysts for this study effort were
Mr. Andrew Remson and Ms. Debbie Anderson
Prepared for U.S. Army Communications-Electronics Command,
Night Vision and Electronic Sensors Directorate, under
Prime Contract DAAB07-96-D-H753, Subcontracts 116056-24695
and 116149-30898.

Absolutely fantastic brake down of the tank numbers and strength
in man power etc. with simple charts and exhaustive lists of unit
participation both German and Soviet.

Check it out man!

Sherman tanks, I have drawings and may fit them in in distant future
addition

ZeeWolf

Sledgehammer427 12-01-2009 09:23 PM

I have the russian order of battle in pdf format. first two volumes if you are interested

growbag 12-02-2009 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freiwillige (Post 1211492)
Nashorn in Action !

Pershing from the 3rd Armored Division was knocked out at the distance of 250 meters with a single shot. This engagement took place in the town of Niehl, north of Cologne on March 6th of 1945.

Hey, I live in Nippes, and Niehl (now a suburb) is just down the end of the road. Any pics of the incident, or street names? I could take a "now" shot for you if you're interested ;)

ZeeWolf 12-02-2009 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer427 (Post 1212135)
I have the russian order of battle in pdf format. first two volumes if you are interested

I am, but not now. my focus is very narrow for now. :salute:

ZeeWolf

ZeeWolf 12-02-2009 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by growbag (Post 1212370)
Hey, I live in Nippes, and Niehl (now a suburb) is just down the end of the road. Any pics of the incident, or street names? I could take a "now" shot for you if you're interested ;)

That would be great, but the war in the east has my attention for now. :yep:

ZeeWolf

Hitman 12-02-2009 12:41 PM

T34 vs. Tiger DVD just arrived at my home :DL

Waiting with great expectation for your work to be completed :up: will train a bit in the meantime with the Tiger :D


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