Wolfpack 0.18 Torpedo run before turn problem
 

"Torpedo gyro is now activated after 200 meters."

This feels... strange. Is it realistic?

According to http://www.tvre.org/en/gyro-angled-torpedoes, the initial run before starting a turn is somewhere between 9.5-15m, depending on the type of torpedo. Their turning radius differ too.

My hunch is they meant arming distance, at least I hope so!

After multiple testing, I can confirm they run, repeatedly 235m before turning on a 45m radius turn onto the gyro angle.

I too believe the devs got confused on this and meant to alter the arming distance.

This is going to torpedo (pun intended) the run into the convoy between columns and hip shoot everything.

The TDC takes the turn into account so as long as the shooting solution is accurate the shots will be as accurate as before.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/pic...ictureid=10443

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/pic...ictureid=10444

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/pic...ictureid=10445

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/pic...ictureid=10446

I’m a bit puzzled because I thought the turn occurred after 10 or so meters IRL. Why the decision to extend it? A very close range 60 to 90 deg angled shot is now likely going to be impossible now due to parallax.

Piggybacking on Sharpshooter’s post - http://www.tvre.org/en/gyro-angled-torpedoes

“When the gyro angle is 90º the following torpedoes have an advance equal to:
G7a and G7e: 104,5 m”

So that forward movement is taking the turn radius into account, which at a 90 deg gyro angle is the maximum turn radius that will occur. Now, our in-game fish won’t even have TURNED until twice that whole distance, which has huge implications as far as angled attacks go. If I have a target passing me going bows opposite directions and I’m 300-400 meters off its track, I can’t shoot it, because the parallax caused by such a long pre-turn advance makes it physically impossible.

Is there a reason for this change? This eliminates or severely limits the use of historical tactics (such as running into the front of convoys and shooting close-range angled shots).:nope:

Can you test that setup in the training mode ( so you can see the torpedo tracks)?

Will do Neal. I’m out of town all week unfortunately but will test when back next week.

Neal; when I posted above to confirm the extraordinarily long run before turn, that was because I'd spent an hour in the training mission with the solution turned on and I MEASURED EVERY TORP.

They all turned at around 235-245 metres EVERY TIME, with a turn radius of 45 metres.

PRIOR to this new patch, they ran for about 34 metres before turning, with about the same turn radius.

So the difference between 0.17c and 0.18 is 6.91 times LONGER.

What more evidence do you still require?

I can't believe this was the intention; I'm convinced they meant to make the torpedoes ARM after 200+ metres, but they've gotten confused and changed the wrong parameter.

yes i can confirm. what was mentioned. i was on with said named person.

I understand you. Does it affect accuracy?

I haven’t been able to test a near-90 gyro angle 300-400 m shot, but I don’t think it will be possible anymore, just don’t see how it would. Torpedo can’t turn in time for that now and will be playing “catchup” at a highly-unfavorable impact angle.

The fact that German fish turned after 10m was a HUGE tactical advantage of the technology, and was in keeping with the German doctrine and practice of using the flexibility the TDC provided to shoot minimum range shots at large gyro angles (assuming targeting data was solid).

I would like to understand the reason for the change.

If it’s to be modeled accurately, the forward advance of the G7e (and G7a for that matter) was 104.5 m for a 90 gyro angle shot. That’s a straight run of 9.5 m then a turn with a radius of 95m.

Good idea, I'll run a test at a close range shot (the type I'd usually attempt) and see if it's all gone to pot.

However, of course, I no longer have access to the previous version, so I can't show you the comparison, so anecdotal evidence will have to suffice either way.

I'll PM you the results, as this isn't really the thread for this, this was supposed to just be for dev's to put update notices...

Wolfpack 0.18 Torpedo run before turn problem
 

So, in the 'Development Updates' thread there is a conversation about the extreme and out of the blue change to the torpedo run before the gyro angle turn.

To prove the point, I used the historical technique of running between columns headfirst and firing left and right at close by ships.

I mimicked this in Wolfpack 0.18 using the Training scenario to enable the true information on the map.

In the linked video you will see I set up a perfect head on shot. I fired when the target ship is about 60 degree bearing on the periscope, on a parallel course with an abeam distance of just 420m

I fire with the scope pointing at midships on the target ship.

The torpedo runs about 230m before doing a 45m radius hard turn 130 degrees to the right in order to try and hit the ship.

As such it only just clips the rudder area of the ship which has a length of 124m, which means due to the massive parallax error incurred because of the extreme torpedo run, it's hitting about 60m behind where you're aiming.

Previous to the 0.18 patch, the torpedo run before turn was about 34m with the same radius.

It's not increased by a factor of almost 6.2!!

To hit midships in this historically accurate type of approach you need to be aiming ahead of the bow of the ship!?!

Below is the link to my youtube video showing this and two screen shots showing the torpedo run and the 130 degree turn it had to make.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/pic...ictureid=10447

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/pic...ictureid=10448

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXs3_vG8iNE

I believe this is a mistake and it was meant to be that the torpedo ARMED over 200m, not turned onto Gyro Angle.

I hope this gets fixed soon as it's a major problem to my kind of approach / tactics.

If you haven't seen it Neal & Dev's I've made a post in the Wolfpack forum that shows the video and two screenshots of the problem.

td;lr

The torpedo is hitting about 60m aft of the aiming point, on short targets this means it will pass behind them when you shoot with the periscope at midships on the target.

Larger targets it will clip the rudder / stern.

This is due to the excessive run before turn that in my example resulted in the torpedo running so far ahead of my ship, that it had to do a 130 degree turn and CHASE the target, despite my firing it when the target ship was at my 060 bearing.

I've been led to believe that the historical figure for the run before gyro turn was SIGNIFICANTLY shorter, and even shorter than you had previously coded (a mere 10m or so) although it's turn radius was much larger than the 45m you have right now.

Either way, the extreme run before turn has broken several historical shooting methods, and this combined with the fact that:

a) The devs didn't put this out on the BETA branch, thus allowing us to 'roll back' to a known better version of 0.17c, and

b) The devs being away and probably not able to address this for at least a month, means that unless you're shooting at close to zero gyro angles, then this is unplayable unless you 'guesstimate' how much lead you need to add to the periscope before you fire.

I also have a video showing me engaging a target at 2600m and again, firing at midships, and the torpedo JUST clipped the rudder, despite having everything set exactly correct (due to using training solution on to verify).

This again proves that even long shots at around 45 gryo angle incur this parallax problem.

Hope this info helps and we can get this resolved as quickly as possible when the devs return, whenever that will be.

But really, they shouldn't push the update to mainline right away - it should have gone to BETA for a week or two's testing first.

How do you revert to 0.17C, or 0.18?


The 0.18A update broken the time system for me, slowing down current time, and timer, when going into the map. It seems though not to slow down the physics, such as speed and travel-distance.


Or maybe this is not a bug? A new feature I have not learned?

You don’t. Devs should have using the beta branch for the latest releases but they stopped doing that after the first update.

It has just been patched, despite them being on holiday - so pick up 0.18a on mainline. *thanks devs* :Kaleun_Salute:

However still weird things visible in the training mission but this has been *mostly* fixed.

Oh, the timer is broken alright, and not just in the map but across the board. The in-game stopwatch is randomly diverging from real time by up to 20% (sometimes slower, sometimes faster), but only if there's more than one player in the lobby.

I'm still researching it but at this time I'm fairly convinced that this negatively affects ship speed calculation because the objects in the game world move in "real time", not in "game timer time". I only get accurate speed readings with a real-life stopwatch, as verified by a non-timer-dependent method (running parallel and matching speed) and through various experimentation.

I'm finishing collecting data and will post a formal bug report in the next few days if it's not fixed by then.

welcome aboard!