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-   -   Liars! (False Flags) (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=250746)

lecek 10-09-2021 07:16 PM

Liars! (False Flags)
 
Hello subsimmers.


Dealing with neutral vessels is a bit of a pain. There is little information on what to look for and it seems you never find anything suspicious. There are things though that make you go HMMM. I would like to start a discussion based on how we can tell and what to look for. Have you sunk a newt and found out later it was really a newt? I want your experience.

I was watching a video by Lite_ly Salted called "Liars!" wherein his crew found nothing suspicious either. He sunk the ship based on other things and low and behold the life boats where red. (A good watch if you haven't seen it.)

So I started a new career to mess around with, found a couple of newts and sank them both. Here is what I have found.




Incident 1


I found a C3, heavily armed flying a flag of Portugal. The captain used Portuguese to speak. He was heading for Lisbon with medical supplies. The name was "Melange I".


-> They were located just south of Ireland and heading towards the UK.
-> Challenged the documents, claimed they where fake. He says no and the game claims he seems to be right. (I have never not had this outcome.)
-> Searched cargo hold. Found nothing suspicious. (I have never not had this outcome.)
-> Looked at what they are hauling. It was medical supplies and high caliber ammo.
-> Ordered the evacuation and sank the ship with deck gun.
-> The icon was newt gray and so where the lifeboats.


** Outcome **
BDU found they where a US ship under false flag.


** Notes **
-Unlike in the Lite_ly Salted video, you can't tell by the colour of the lifeboats after they evacuate.
-I sank the ship based on location, direction, (wrong for Lisbon) and the fact that it had high caliber ammo. Everything else checked out.


*Edit - It occurs to me the ship was really a newt, it was US, so maybe that is why everything was still newt gray after it sank. I still got the credit, I think because it was a false flag.





Incident 2


I found a tanker not far south of Ireland. Ship was flying a Spanish flag but heading for UK. Its name was "Dinsdale".


-> You can't interact with a tanker.
-> This ship sent a message spotting the plume of the C3 from incident 1.
-> When I got close, it sent a message stating it was under attack. I had not yet shot at it.
-> Sank it with deck gun.
-> Wreckage marker was red.


** Outcome **
BDU found they where a UK ship under false flag. (Might have been Canadian, I forget now.)


** Notes **
-I sank the ship based on the name, (Dinsdale for Spain?), Location and direction, and because it sent an under attack message when I hadn't fired a shot. I was just there.
-I didn't notice the lifeboats, the wreckage marker was red.

GoldenRivet 10-09-2021 09:08 PM

an excellent discussion, and i'll tell you this, im pretty impressed with how accurately UBoat deals with prize regulations, and it helps to be familiar with them. (here is a link to a great, and old, subsim thread about them https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...d.php?t=219074)

so lets discuss incident 1:

Quote:

I found a C3, heavily armed flying a flag of Portugal. The captain used Portuguese to speak. He was heading for Lisbon with medical supplies. The name was "Melange I".


-> They were located just south of Ireland and heading towards the UK.
-> Challenged the documents, claimed they where fake. He says no and the game claims he seems to be right. (I have never not had this outcome.)
-> Searched cargo hold. Found nothing suspicious. (I have never not had this outcome.)
-> Looked at what they are hauling. It was medical supplies and high caliber ammo.
-> Ordered the evacuation and sank the ship with deck gun.
-> The icon was newt gray and so where the lifeboats.


** Outcome **
BDU found they where a US ship under false flag.
refer to the prize regulations "Article VIII: banned goods"

"number 1: weapons of any kind" on the deck - the neutral merchant was armed and thus a viable target in my opinion.

"number 24: Medicines intended for use by the enemey." It is my interpretation as to the location and course of the ship, and the fact that it is heavily laden with medical supplies that the commander of the uboat would be safe to assume these medicines are in fact bound for an enemy port and thus the ship is a legitimate target.

refer to "Article IX: Banned goods considered for exemption" specifically where it states "Consideration should be given by the U-boat commander to the on board papers, logs, shipping labels or itinerary etc of the vessel. Attack, prizing, or confiscation should be considered if:

1. The vessel carrying such banned goods has clearly deviated from its route without justifiable reason for doing so
2. If there is evidence that the papers presented to the boarding party have been falsified so as to conceal the materials kept aboard, or conceal the intended destination etc
"

the ship is clearly not on a course for it's stated destination, and again, this makes her viable as a target

---

regarding incident 2

Quote:

Incident 2


I found a tanker not far south of Ireland. Ship was flying a Spanish flag but heading for UK. Its name was "Dinsdale".


-> You can't interact with a tanker.
-> This ship sent a message spotting the plume of the C3 from incident 1.
-> When I got close, it sent a message stating it was under attack. I had not yet shot at it.
-> Sank it with deck gun.
-> Wreckage marker was red.
refer to "Article VIII: Banned Goods"

Number 22. Fuel oil, crude oil, lubricating oil, aviation gasoline are considered banned goods and for this reason, this dinsdale is a legitimate target

refer to "Article XI: attacks without warning"

"Number 4: Vessels which convey to the enemy the position of the U-boat may be attacked without warning", by broadcasting on radio that it was under attack by a U-boat, this vessel becomes a legitimate target for this reason.

------

it helps to have someone aboard on the boarding party who has the skill - i forget what it is - but the skill where they know wat goods are transported to what ports (symbol for this skill is money i think) - if you have them in the boarding party and push that the papers are false, most of the time the neutral captain will crack and confess that the ship is false flagged or something to that extent.

lecek 10-09-2021 09:31 PM

My Kalun had the merchant skill and he was on the away team. Perhaps I should re-evaluate the choices I make when I investigate.

Good citation of the prize rules. I knew them in vague terms but you have actual text.

Though I don't know how closely the game models the prize rules. A ship with medical supplies bound for Liverpool for example is flagged as not being a part of the war effort. I don't know how seriously to take that.

Also I am not sure about merchantmen being armed makes them legitimate. US Ships traveling alone are not valid targets. Doesn't matter if they are armed. Pissed off a lot of Kaluns during the war.

Curious of your thoughts.

GoldenRivet 10-09-2021 09:35 PM

Some of the prize regulations were specifically modified by Hitler.

he had some pretty specific orders to leave the American ships alone... however, i have sent several US ships to the bottom traveling in convoy with enemy escorts and considered those valid targets without any consequences

lecek 10-09-2021 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet (Post 2773464)
Some of the prize regulations were specifically modified by Hitler.

he had some pretty specific orders to leave the American ships alone... however, i have sent several US ships to the bottom traveling in convoy with enemy escorts and considered those valid targets without any consequences


I can confirm that. I just sank a rare unescorted convoy. 3 US ships and 2 GB ships. All ships showed as red in the map.


It seems US ships with false flags or in convoy are fair game.

Lite_ly Salted 10-12-2021 02:22 PM

Quote:

I was watching a video by Lite_ly Salted called "Liars!" wherein his crew found nothing suspicious either. He sunk the ship based on other things and low and behold the life boats where red. (A good watch if you haven't seen it.)
Thanks for the shoutout!

Contemplative Flame 11-11-2021 06:36 PM

This is very interesting. I had no idea this game had this level of detail, nor this type of content. I have will have to consider getting it more closely.


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