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-   -   Armored Brigade v0.802 released (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=193790)

veitikka 03-26-2012 12:18 PM

Armored Brigade v0.802 released
 
http://www.armoredbrigade.com

A new version of Armored Brigade is out. I recommend all wargamers to try this free game.

Skybird 03-27-2012 09:08 AM

Yes, it's a nice one. Have occasionally recommended it myself in the past years.

I just wished he would finally, finally spend one or two hours on a text explaining the less obvious options and possibilities. Much can be found out by trial-and-error, but some things are anything but self-explanatory. These definitely should get some written treatment, finally, after this long time.

Dowly 03-27-2012 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1861482)
I just wished he would finally, finally spend one or two hours on a text explaining the less obvious options and possibilities. Much can be found out by trial-and-error, but some things are anything but self-explanatory. These definitely should get some written treatment, finally, after this long time.

Maybe he will put some effort to it now that you mention it. Veitikka, AFAIK,
is the man behind the game. :03:

Ps. @Veitikka Tervetuloa :salute:

Oberon 03-27-2012 02:33 PM

I shall have to download the new version. Looking forward to having a play about, it's a beautiful piece of work.

I wonder if there are plans for BAOR and multiplayer? :hmmm:

veitikka 03-27-2012 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1861482)
I just wished he would finally, finally spend one or two hours on a text explaining the less obvious options and possibilities. Much can be found out by trial-and-error, but some things are anything but self-explanatory. These definitely should get some written treatment, finally, after this long time.

I'll tell him to hurry up with the quick start guide :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly
Ps. @Veitikka Tervetuloa

Kiitos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon
I wonder if there are plans for BAOR and multiplayer?

Unfortunately no plans for multiplayer, but the map designer is working on the BAOR map and units. That map alone is modest 7410 square kilometers :)

http://www.armoredbrigade.com/images3/BAOR_thm.jpg

Skybird 03-27-2012 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veitikka (Post 1861661)
I'll tell him to hurry up with the quick start guide :)

A quick start guide of limited reach is not so much what is needed, players can find out the basic things quite fast. But there are quite some details and features that I find tougher to make sense of, or where I wonder if and how the game simulates them or not. The less self-explanatory things and hidden details must be explained, not the obvious ones!

:yeah:

Oberon 03-27-2012 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veitikka (Post 1861661)
I'll tell him to hurry up with the quick start guide :)



Kiitos.



Unfortunately no plans for multiplayer, but the map designer is working on the BAOR map and units. That map alone is modest 7410 square kilometers :)

http://www.armoredbrigade.com/images3/BAOR_thm.jpg

Shame about the multiplayer, but understandable, it is a hard thing to implement...but dear god, that is a huge map. Beautiful :yeah: Look forward to seeing BAOR included. :rock:

Skybird 03-28-2012 06:22 AM

Why not having the new maps along with the former map editor? Or did I miss it? I played AB yesterday, it was my first go at it since a longer time. I was surprised by the changes.

veitikka 03-29-2012 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1861930)
Why not having the new maps along with the former map editor? Or did I miss it? I played AB yesterday, it was my first go at it since a longer time. I was surprised by the changes.

You mean the random map generator? The new maps are so much better in every way, and there should be plenty of them coming, so I didn't see any use for the generated maps.

Skybird 03-29-2012 06:09 AM

Okay. Another detaiol that got my attention was how man missed shots there are. VERY many. Leopards-2A4s needing to fire a dozen rounds at a target in order to finally hit it, does not sound right. Also, the firing ranges did not exceed around 2000m. I wonder why they do not engage at greater ranges even when having an unobstructed LOS. While there may not be reason in always firing at a moving target 4 km away, firing ranges of 3 km and more should be implemented, especially at stationary targets.

And a tip for urban areas: I would implement a variable that make LOS interrupted once it pentrates two rows of houses deep, because right now the houses seem to be treated as individual objects, giving even dense cities with small streets and tight houselines with closes facades the look of a loosely assembled camping site. This makies any behaviour of units in cities absolutely unrealistic.

Keep on the work! You are already that far that things like these, and some others, mean a shorter travel before you than what already lies behind you! :yeah:

veitikka 03-29-2012 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1862410)
Okay. Another detaiol that got my attention was how man missed shots there are. VERY many. Leopards-2A4s needing to fire a dozen rounds at a target in order to finally hit it, does not sound right. Also, the firing ranges did not exceed around 2000m. I wonder why they do not engage at greater ranges even when having an unobstructed LOS. While there may not be reason in always firing at a moving target 4 km away, firing ranges of 3 km and more should be implemented, especially at stationary targets.

Maybe so many shots were needed because you were firing at a dug-in or hull-down target with a small turret from a long range? The green arc indicates that the unit is hull-down. Leo2 shouldn't usually have problems hitting a target that's a few kilometers away. The APFSDS max range is set to 3500 meters, it's possible to engage targets that far away if the LOS is unobstructed. The LOS tool ignores all smoke, so the unit LOS can be obstructed even if the tool shows otherwise.

Quote:

And a tip for urban areas: I would implement a variable that make LOS interrupted once it pentrates two rows of houses deep, because right now the houses seem to be treated as individual objects, giving even dense cities with small streets and tight houselines with closes facades the look of a loosely assembled camping site. This makies any behaviour of units in cities absolutely unrealistic.
Yes indeed, it could be a good idea to restrict the LOS in urban areas...

Skybird 03-29-2012 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veitikka (Post 1862431)
Maybe so many shots were needed because you were firing at a dug-in or hull-down target with a small turret from a long range? The green arc indicates that the unit is hull-down. Leo2 shouldn't usually have problems hitting a target that's a few kilometers away. The APFSDS max range is set to 3500 meters, it's possible to engage targets that far away if the LOS is unobstructed. The LOS tool ignores all smoke, so the unit LOS can be obstructed even if the tool shows otherwise.

As I remember, it were scouts on the move in plain terrain or on roads, as well as some APCs or IFVs, sometimes sitting still on a road. Range below 2000. No smoke for the most.

Also, what irritated me, in the AAR it showed that of the Russian force in a meeting scenario where I (German forces) choosed to just sit still in hiding, half of the units were ZSU57 and air defence, while in the menu a unit composition of "armour" was selected. But even for a mechanised or infantry force, a composition where half of the combat units are AD, looks a bit weired and ineffective. The scenario rated it as a total victory for me after I had killed most of the APCs and IFVs, and the two or three tanks there were. Of the ZSU57 I did not shoot a single one. To see that long column of ZSU57 driving down on the road, maybe a dozen of them , was strange, even more so since they obviously were not handled as to their value and purpose, but where handled like tanks with marching order.

The automatic unit composition in the menu maybe better is to be ignored? I choosed "armour" for my force composition, too, what I got was 4 Leopards, 12 Fuchs and a handful of infantry scouts. That is a light, a very olight mechnaised force. "Armour" would mean tank-heavy forces. And that'S what I planned to get when switching both force compsoitions to armour and automatic: a tank battle. Of the maybe two dozen Russian vehiuclkes, half were AD, 3 were T64, the rest were very light APCs on scouting missions - not even BMPs (like there also were no Marders on German side).

Don'T want to annoy you, veitikka, but since you create this game, I simply assume you look for feedback even if it raising questions. I don't want to complain, but mean it in a constructive way. With the general design you are in for something, I think, it reminds me a bit of playing SBP-PE from a map view exclusively, with a lighter focus on realism. With the basic structure apparently established, what it now needs is plenty of polish and finetuning.

Which admittedly is likely to be the trickier part. :shucks: I see that in your home forum Lieste makes appearances - that is good advise coming from him.

I would also invite interested players in the eSim forum by going there and telling them what you do, as long as you do not commercially rival them, which I assume is no problem as long as your game is free. Explain your project, and invite them to go over and have a look, I think the management then will not object. You would dig for a treasurechest of experience and knowledge there if some of the old hands there decide to give it a try. But to have a few pages of how-to-handle-the-game instructions I would consider to be a must, first. :DL

:salute:

Skybird 03-29-2012 08:30 AM

Oh, and any plans for artillery, and ammunition management? Armoured warfare in modern times means to be mobile and changing positions due to the need of escaping arty.

Skybird 03-29-2012 04:50 PM

By chance found a menu that listed 0 types of artillery, so arty seems to be there, helicopters as well, but I do not get how to make use of them. Mortars also are a riddle to me.

I also could not get the scenario to start that I just tried, I set up my forces, gave initial waypoints, hit "start" - and nothing happened. "Start" "start" "Start" - nothing. :06:

I only say: MA-NU-AL, clap-clap-clap!!! MA-NU-AL, clap-clap-clap!!! :DL

veitikka 03-31-2012 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1862441)
The automatic unit composition in the menu maybe better is to be ignored? I choosed "armour" for my force composition, too, what I got was 4 Leopards, 12 Fuchs and a handful of infantry scouts. That is a light, a very olight mechnaised force. "Armour" would mean tank-heavy forces. And that'S what I planned to get when switching both force compsoitions to armour and automatic: a tank battle. Of the maybe two dozen Russian vehiuclkes, half were AD, 3 were T64, the rest were very light APCs on scouting missions - not even BMPs (like there also were no Marders on German side).

The units have a purchase value, that is mostly based on their effectiveness. Sometimes the AutoPurchaser can give you a few "expensive" tanks, instead of a horde of "cheap" ones. Also, it tries to spend all of the purchase points it has, so it can spend the last points for something cheap, like the ZSU-57s. You can adjust how much points can be spent for different categories in the "Combat power allocation" screen before the purchase phase. If you want a realistic force composition I recommend that you pick all units manually.

Artillery and CAS are in the game already. Artillery is purchased by using the +/- buttons. In the setup phase you have to designate the artillery target reference points and helicopter battle positions, and build the obstacles. If you haven't done everything the game enters the proper mode automatically, and basically you just have to start clicking on the map (or select the helicopter flight if the menu is opened).

On-map indirect fire (mortars and such) is controlled in the right-click menu. Select "IF", or use the keyboard shortcuts found in the help screen (press F1).

Skybird 10-19-2018 06:00 AM

Its been a long long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf4yA0iGH2s

Approaching release at Matrix, hopefully also Steam. TOAW IV saw a Steam release recently.


The developer on the AI:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4508631

Skybird 10-19-2018 06:17 AM

Forum:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1639


Matrix' product page lists Novembre 15th as release date.

dmagnusson 11-16-2018 07:56 AM

the game is out now :-)

Skybird 11-25-2018 08:37 AM

I watched some videos, and had a - polite but unsatisfying - discussion with the dev and others in their forum on the AI (thread title was "Concerning the AI", my avatar there is the same like here: Skybird). It seems to have a tendency to "lemminginize" itself, and this was already the case with the free version years ago. This issue was also pointed out by the full reviews of the game done by Wargamer.org, and Rock,Paper,Shotgun, both hailed the game for its many details and accessibility, but pointed out that sometimes the Lemmings syndrome just spoil the mission play.

I continue to be on standby-and-watching mode until the developer decides to take this serious. He has shrugged off any reminders of wargames doing a bit better in this regard, thats why I am now a bit pessimistic: he said it would be too much expected to code such an AI, and that I should show him a game that are like I outlined. I did, and one or two other folks did. Mostly he did not comment on that (CM2, OF, COTA), or questioned the legitimicy of the comparison (SB). Well.

Cosims like this stand and fall with the AI, even more so when having no MP, to PBM, no campaign and only 15 missions, and Operation Flashpoint, Combat Mission Shockforce, Conquest of the Aegean, Steel Beasts show that the Lemming-syndrome can be dealt with.

If a player does not care for Lemmings, and plays Steel Panther MBT despite its inferior AI and the obvious deficits the game has there, then AB is probably a good choice for this player, and the game certainly has a better AI than that old game. If Lemmings syndrome concerns you, wait. For myslf, just DLCs with more content will not do the trick without the Lemmings mostly gone - if they pop up so often that two major reviews mention it, and I recall it from years ago, then it is most likely a rela issue. At least in m book.



Personally I am just perplexed that such an obvious issue was never been dealt with over all those years, apparently.

Developer says that he wants it to be at Steam one day, but I assume Matrix has a word on that as well. Several Matrix games however have found their way to Steam in past years, so the chance is real (but not guaranteed).

Skybird 12-01-2018 05:38 PM

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4562398


More feedback on the AI. I am in passive observation mode regarding the game, and I have a feeling this will not change for quite some more time. The poster describes exactly my observations formt he freee version years ago. Which means nothing has been done on this issue in all those years. Sorry to say, but to me that is no good sign for this project which already runs since long time.



I waited for this game to come out in full version, for years. But I feel that I am now shifting away from it.


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