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Chock 10-18-07 10:31 PM

Here's the good guys airborne in FSX!

:D Chock

XabbaRus 10-19-07 07:25 AM

How does it fly? How is the flight model worked out?

Morts 10-19-07 07:48 AM

Chock 10-19-07 08:49 AM

DC-3 -one of my favourites, nice picture too!

Re: How does it fly? How is the flight model worked out?

As you probably know, the 3D model and the flight model are two separate entities in Flight Simulator, so the actual physical appearance of the aircraft doesn't affect the flight handling at all. In practical terms this means you could make a model of the Whitehouse and assign a Boeing 747's flight model to it, and it would fly just like a 747. Obviously this is useful in the case of the previously posted 'tail-less' TF-29, (the one that looks like a bird), as it would probably be very unstable in real life and need a fly-by-wire system to keep it under control if such a design was ever really attempted. The flight characteristics are all handled by the 'Aircraft' file in the aeroplane's FS folder, which can be edited in notepad, here's a bit of this particular one:

wing_area = 245.80
wing_span = 41
wing_root_chord = 8.42
wing_dihedral = 5
wing_incidence = 0.0
wing_twist = 0.0
oswald_efficiency_factor = 0.80
wing_winglets_flag = 0
wing_sweep = 19.5
wing_pos_apex_lon = 9.22
wing_pos_apex_vert = -1.65
htail_area = 29.33
htail_span = 12.30
htail_pos_lon = -11.43
htail_pos_vert = 2.40
htail_incidence = 0.000000
htail_sweep = 23.20
vtail_area = 24.46
vtail_span = 6.44
vtail_sweep = 44
vtail_pos_lon = -8.51
vtail_pos_vert = 0.18
elevator_area = 10.90
aileron_area = 33.08
rudder_area = 19.69
elevator_up_limit = 26.00000
elevator_down_limit = 20.00000
aileron_up_limit = 19.480565
aileron_down_limit = 19.480565
rudder_limit = 23.491270
elevator_trim_limit = 19.480565
spoiler_limit = 60.000000
aileron_to_spoileron_gain = 0.000000
spoiler_handle_available = 1
min_ailerons_for_spoilerons = 0.000000
min_flaps_for_spoilerons = 0.000000
spoilerons_available = 0

In the case of this, and the TF29 Swallow thingy I previously posted pics of, all I did was to assign the flight model of another pre-existing aircraft to these new ones (I used the flight model of the Flight Replicas Me262). In this case it doesn't really matter what flight model it has, as all I will be doing with these particular models will be taking FRAPS footage of them performing various moves and then editing the shots to look like they are dogfighting one another, although I will have to send the models to a friend and FRAPS some of this online with a buddy flying them alongside for the formation shots, as this will be easier than arsing around editing it to look like that. I may possibly do some of the dogfight sequences like that, in a pre-rehearsed routine, because in the story, the green two seater has to defeat three of the much sleeker 'enemy' planes. This will be right up my friend's street, as he's the one who's flying that A6 Intruder right up my ass in some earlier screenshots I posted on the previous page, and he's a real aerobatics nut (in real life too as it happens).

I will have to edit some of the flight model parameters to get the navigation lights in the right position and maybe alter the wheels geometry to suit them for take off shots, although I hadn't planned to show them taking off, so at this point they don't actually have (or need) any modelled 3D landing gear at all (of course that might change). In actual fact, in the story, the green two seater fighter/bomber pictured above does not take off from a runway, but is launched from a large airborne 'carrier' on the edge of space, which is why it has rockets, rather than jet engines.

:D Chock

XabbaRus 10-19-07 11:27 AM

For your models to fly though did you input the values that you do know fo r your model, eg wingspan, chord, area etc? Or just use verbatim another models values?

What about X-Plane is that still going?

Chock 10-19-07 03:24 PM


For your models to fly though did you input the values that you do know fo r your model, eg wingspan, chord, area etc? Or just use verbatim another models values?

What about X-Plane is that still going?
Nothing so sophisticated, I just picked something reasonably close to the kind of performance I wanted for the FRAPS recordings, and the first one that sprang to mind was the Me262, although thinking about it, I think the roll rate and stuff is probably about right for the big two seater, I'll probably switch the other one so it has a better roll rate and stuff so it looks more agile. As it stands though, they both have the bog standard Me262 flight model, largely justout of expedience, so I could see them in flight with proper lighting, as it's always a bit hard to tell how things will truly look in a 3D design program.

X-Plane is still going as far as I know, and that of course uses the actual shape of the 3D model to determine the flight characteristics via blade element technology and analysing laminar flow etc, which sounds great, but I've found that in practice it doesn't always result in believable flight performance, notably with helicopters, so with both FS and X-Plane, neither is perfect at flight modeling in general.

Personally, I think Condor wipes the floor with every other commercially available PC flight simulator in terms of that, but since most people think gliding is boring (which it isn't) they're unlikely to ever find out about how good a flight simulator Condor is.

:D Chock

Steel_Tomb 10-20-07 10:48 AM

Hey guys, that "wings over 'nam" sim, looks pretty nice...especially the crusader! What kind of features/complexity is involved? Is it quite simplified or is it leaning more towards falcon?

Chock 10-20-07 11:23 AM

It's no Falcon in terms of avionics, but radar is there in several modes, and you can lock targets up, however it's not anywhere near as complex as the real deal. Similarly the attack modes are limited too, for example there is no DIANE system on the A6 Intruder, which means good old dive bombing or well timed level bombing is the way to go, although guided weapons such as the Shrike and Walleye missiles do lock stuff up and guide, as do the Sidewinder and Sparrow AAMs. Ironically, the weapons do look very convincing though and the pyrotechnics for them are among the best, looking very much like the real thing and the AAA and SAMs are scarily convincing, with some real 'wall to wall' flak when you go on a mission over Hanoi or Haiphong Harbor. Air to air gunnery is good too, as is the damage modeling, which is remarkably complex for what is essentially a 'lite' survey sim, rather than a study sim.

Also on the plus side, there is a huge array of weaponry, with everything that was ever conceivably slung under a plane in 'Nam there, and it's all usable. It runs well on fairly modest computers too.

Despite its simplicity in comparison to Falcon, there is a great feeling of immersion with it and not all aspects of it are simplified, for example, the carrier operations are probably done more convincingly than in any other simulation (and that includes Janes F/A18), so succesfully 'trapping' on a carrier is hard on full flight realism and feels like an achievement (which of course it is), although you can just end the mission without trying it, or land on autopilot if you don't want to go that hardcore.

The flight models are good, and generally suit whatever plane you are in, although the helicopter flight models in the Yankee Air Pirate add-on mod have been acheived with some programming trickery, as the orignal flight model engine did not support helicopters, so they do handle in a tricky fashion and are not as easily 'flyable' as say, the ones in MS flight simulator.

Most Third Wire sims are limited in their support for online ops, and WOV is no exception to this, other than the fact that, unlike some other TW titles, it will allow you to do co-operative missions as opposed to the more basic 'online dogfight' scenarios more prevalent in other TW titles, although it will do those too. So while it isn't up there with Falcon's superb options in this arena, it's still capable of offering some co-operative online fun with your buddies, and it runs great in that mode too, as evidenced by the screenshots on a previous page of this thread, picturing a couple of A6 Intruders in close formation, where there was no 'rubber banding' from lag, or aircraft jumping about to make life hard.

If you like just ticking a few options boxes and then getting straight into the action with minimal fuss, WOV will do that for you, and also do a more in-depth campaign where you have to manage who flies which plane in your squadron and which aircraft they will take, and there are aspects such as a limit on munitions available and a finite amount of available airframes, so you can make it more realistic if that's your preference. It's in no way as complex or as groovy as Falcon is where the campaigns are concerned (but then again, probably no simulator is or ever will be LOL), but it's still fairly good and historically accurate too, with only the right available aircraft appearing at the specific dates for what was a ten year-long war.

Personally, I like it very much, but that might be because I'm particularly interested in the air combat aspects of the Vietnam war, so it would be hard for me to not like a sim which caters for one of my interests, nevertheless, the modding community for Third Wire stuff is strong and has improved it beyond its original form, and Third wire's support for it's products is right up there with the best, with the developer easily contactable via the forums and willing to consider improvements and suggestions from anybody.

In addition to this, with the 'supermod' that is Yankee Air Pirate, it ramps things up considerably in terms of realism and could fairly be regarded as 'the GWX for Wings Over Vietnam' (although unlike GWX, it aint free, but it isn't that expensive either and can be purchased in small modular chunks, which is an innovative approach to add-ons).

Ultimately, it's up to you whether this kind of thing is for you I suppose, but I suspect you probably would like it. see the other thread on this forum for some more info on it and a couple of links to some videos I made with it.

:D Chock

NiclDoe 10-20-07 11:32 PM

Cool photos Chock! What plane is that by the way? Its so future! :rock:

Chock 10-20-07 11:39 PM


Cool photos Chock! What plane is that by the way? Its so future! :rock:
It's one from an animated sci-fi story I am making. In the story it is called the 'B61 Valkyrie', it's a hybrid rocket/jet-powered fighter/bomber that is launched from a huge flying aircraft carrier up in the high atmosphere. It's meant to be a bit crappy in the story, as it is the one the good guys fly, and in the grand tradition of films, the bad guys always have to have cooler-looking stuff! The names of the pilot and gunner stencilled on the side of it: 'Karen Valdez' and 'Carter Franklin', are the two principal characters in the story.

:D Chock

NiclDoe 10-21-07 01:30 AM

Very cool project your working on and more future i like and hope Bernard is not the pilot of the plane. Also i think that the plane should use cooking oil for fuel becuase of its sweet smell of french fries. i can smell it in the atmosphere then

XabbaRus 10-21-07 04:27 AM

Looks like I will get WoV.

Is it worth getting strike fighters project 1 too?

fatty 10-21-07 10:05 AM


Originally Posted by XabbaRus
Looks like I will get WoV.

Is it worth getting strike fighters project 1 too?

As far as I know SF just has the same engine and same flyable planes as WoV but in a different terrain (desert), and also lacks some features like carrier ops.

Here is a chart comparing the different games and their respective versions. For what it's worth I skipped Strike Fighters and got Wings Over Europe, which includes the A-10, Harrier, and F-15. I also like the campaigns for WOE a lot.

"Snoopy, November Niner Zero, we've got enemy tanks north of our position!"

Chock 10-21-07 10:44 AM


Looks like I will get WoV.

Is it worth getting strike fighters project 1 too?
You'd probably be better off getting Wings Over Vietnam and seeing if you like it, and if you do, then perhaps consider Wings Over Europe rather than Strike Fighters, as WOE is probably more different and will offer better variety, not to mention the fact that WOE is the more modern of the three titles, and thus a little bit more 'shiny' as far as graphics go.

:D Chock

Steel_Tomb 10-21-07 11:02 AM

Thanks Chock, is it only avaliable online? Or can I get it in places such as GAME/gamestation? If your up for a flight I might give you a call lol, love carrier traps! Bring on the corsairs! Are there F4's??

fatty 10-21-07 11:23 AM


Originally Posted by Steel_Tomb
Thanks Chock, is it only avaliable online? Or can I get it in places such as GAME/gamestation? If your up for a flight I might give you a call lol, love carrier traps! Bring on the corsairs! Are there F4's??

Are there F4s, he asks :rotfl:

XabbaRus 10-21-07 02:11 PM

So if you have WOV adn then get WOE can you port aircraft between the two?

fatty 10-21-07 02:35 PM


Originally Posted by XabbaRus
So if you have WOV adn then get WOE can you port aircraft between the two?

I don't know but I assume so. If not you can download add-on aircraft for sure. There is a user-made campaign for Wings Over Vietnam called "Vietnam '84" and as the name implies it is a sort of modern campaign set in Indochina and includes F-14s, F-18s, etc etc.

There is no shortage of add-ons for any of the Third Wire games, whether they be new planes, skins, terrain, or campaigns. I just wrapped up a campaign in Wings Over Europe flying RCAF F-86 Sabres over Germany in 1962.

Kapitan 10-21-07 04:41 PM

Just submitting this old pic i have from FS2004, this was a routine flight from EGLL london heathrow to KJFK new york kennady airport, en route i flew over manchester to join NAT trach "C" (Charlie) which would put me about 150 miles away from iceland.

Following that id later fly down through the canadian cost into new york where i was stacked for over and hour!

But heres the shot.

Chock 10-21-07 04:58 PM


Are there F4's??
Here's a couple of screenshots of the WOV and WOE installation folders, note that some of these are add-ons that aren't as standard with it, but it gives you an idea how many Phantoms there are in it, so I think you'll be happy with WOV for a start!

:D Chock

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