New cartoon scandal brewing - danes does it again (MERGED)
 

Cor blimey! I wonder if it is some sort of national personality disorder that makes us do that. Like the wet paint syndrome. Or "Do not press this button"-button pressing compulsive disorder. Sort of like Dexter's big sister Dee Dee of international politics.

The thing is that the DPP is a xenophobic as you can get. They aren't overtly racist, but they view islam as a threat to Denmark. The video in question was taken at a political summer camp for young people. Which means it was, unlike the cartoons, not meant for public consumption. someone decided that it should be sent to a news station and thus it became public.

I don't know how it is in other countries but around here youth party organizations are always where the most radical people are. No matter if they are lefties or righties. And this is no excuse.

Me, I hope this one just blows over silently. The fickle arabs have hopefully figured out that throwing hissyfits and storming embassies gets then no where fast.

I wonder if they (DPP) are brave, in their just right or just really stupid.

Quite the opposite, I hope that it blows out of proportion again - it works against sympathies for Islam, and increases the numbers of Westerners that are pissed off by Islam. It seems that such things are the only chance to revive some fighting spirit in europeans so that they realize that they are in danger again and need to fight against it.

You are a very strange person to encourage for, and wish war upon us.

I wish they get the message. If they stop reacting like imbeciles, THEN we have won the war. And without a shot fired.

Who necessarily talked of "war"? To wage war against the West or not, and trying to impose Islam onto the West - that decision is theirs, not ours: we did not invite that decision intentionally, but you are signalling htem that you will not resist by efficent means. I talked of fighting against Islam and resisting the islamic ideology spreading all over the west, and to enforce the integration of Muslims into Western cultural habits, laws, and values - else these people must leave europe if they think integration and full surrender to the non-negotiable dominance of Western culture in the Western sphere is demanded too much. I just have come to the conclusion that the damage being inflicted by islam onto Western societies still is not hurting enough as that sufficient majorities of Western residents see the need to confront Islam and tell it: not one inch further. So, the West must make more - numerically - and more intense hurting and painful experiences before it will realize what's the name of the game really is - and that is not tolerance and reason. "Wer nicht hören will, muß fühlen." You want to wait until they change being "imbeciles", as you put it, and they should do it all by themselves, just for fun. But you do not want to do anything towards that goal. You spare them any need to rethink their ideology. By your non-action - they see it working as planned. So why should they stop behaving like imbeciles when it works so well for them, and people like you are willing to help them to avoid all direct hurting consequences that are coming as a consequence of Islam's nature and essence? You may think waiting for the fairy-queen fixing things is an option. I do not. You want it all to change for the better, but you do not want to accept the work and conflict-readiness needed for that. That's why things will constantly detoriate as long as people of your opinions dominate policy-making, for you will always step back to avoid conflict and confrontation. Islam is an ideology of winners and conquerors, and it takes all. It does not know the option of loosing, a prsent loss only means that the bfight will be continued later, until victory is secured. Your peaceful attitude is no match for it. From it's perspective you are just an unworthy weakling whose wellmeaningness waits to be exploited. Your sig is a joke only. You are not aware of the consequences it means: active resistance, that is. Guys like you are too kind - and they know that, and take maximum advantage of that.

A bit late to try and avoid war since the Western World has been at war with Islam for some centuries now.

Besides, when will they start answering for their flag burning? That's quite insulting to the nations whose flags are involved.

I'll take the side of the Muslims on this one.

Down with the state TV!

Now, down with the state TV in Iran, Syria, and the rest of the Middle East too!

Or don't they air programs just as bad and insulting if not far worse than this and do so on an almost daily basis? http://www.memritv.org/

The Danish get rid of their state TV and the Middle East does the same, deal?

The rest is the same ol': many of our radical youth grow out of their radicalism and those who remain radical have stopped practicing terrorism even if they still support it. Their radicals are maintained in radicalism by the Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood, for example, and end up dead in Israel, Iraq, UK, Germany, Spain and abroad in some cases practicing mass murder or attempting to do so. We have opposing voices in Denmark. All opposing voice to the Ayatollah or Ahmadinejad are promtly silenced or suppressed. We have the liberty of despising this youth organization, changing the channel and complaining to the TV station, they have to pretend they abide by the official speech even if they don't.

If Muslims, Islamic orgs and Islamists outside Denmark believe they have the right to criticize foreign TV stations then they cannot deny my criticizing of their stations.

What dangerous repercussions are we talking about here? Calling for the assassination of the Pope? The destruction of the Vatican? The murder of all expatriated voices from the Middle East? Stabbing movie directors you don't like? The attack on two skyscrapers, a military headquarters and somewhere else? The hijacking and explosion of 10 airplanes or so above the Atlantic? The explosion of buses? The explosion of subway trains?

To them it's just an excuse. I think it's a disgrace to God that they don't go to church on Sunday. Lets go protest in Iran.

ps. Bring your 357 magnum.

No what I am saying is that they do know already. IF they know what is good for them, they will ignore it. But they cannot.

They must show that they are good muslims and fight vehemently to protect its honour. Not because it matters to most, not even the muslims I believe, but because it is prestigious to be the upholder of propiety. So everyone tries to be the first to condemn these things with firebrand rhetorics.

So you see, if they were able to for once to just shrug and move on, I think the west would have won a small victory. Of course they won't, because that would be to admit defeat.

anti-muslim sentiment is growing in the UK as well, many people are getting fed up with the massive over-reactions from certain muslim groups.

there may be a war brewing a lot of people on both 'sides' are getting mighty annoyed.

I think its not as much the overreaction as it is one is continously reminded of their ambiguos affinity. Are they democrats or muslims that want the sharia or caliphate? At least some muslims have figured out that they are democrats first, national citizens next then muslims. So what ever the great prophet has to say, he comes third when it conflicts with king or country.

Unfortunately they do not receive much media attention ,and a lot of hatred from the foaming-at-the-mouth radicals.

A true Muslim is Muslim first, citizen second - in a Western understanding. In Muslim understanding, there is only Ummah.

Every third British Muslim citizen wants the Sharia. I say that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide prefers caliphate to democracy - in congruency with Quran, Hadith, Muhammad's example, Islamic history.

I think you mistake that for orthodox muslims. There is no one unifiedmuslimhood out there, already they had divergent paths of faith a few years after the prophets death. Otherwise shiites and sunnis wouldn't be at each other's jugulars in Iraq. So if they can have one schizm, lets help them get another. The good thing is that some of the brighter heads have figured out they can be just fine putting islam third in the rank. It is a hard fight but I think the war will be easier won with nylon stockings, coca cola and jeans rather than blood and iron.

Neither Shiite nor Sunni Islamic schools of jurisprudence differ much in their concepts of Jihad and Islamic global domination and the subjugation of infidels.
I would not necessarily assume such people to be brighter. Many Muslims are ignorant of their own religion, same as most Jews and Christians are of theirs today.

You might say that ignorance is bliss. But what happens once they do learn? Do such "enlightened" Muslims then reject their religion altogether, live knowing the facts that they are mediocre sinning Muslims or become repentant and join the Uma?
:nope:

Anyway, heads up!

Strychnine found in Danish reservoir.

Sounds like:

Hundreds of Iraqi police poisoned, officials say.

And is all this an answer to the call?

It's a different world. :cry:

The strychnine was put into water supply by teenagers. So far they are not described as jihadists.

I think you have the same set-in-stone view on islam as Skybird has. There is only a Uma because people choose to join it. If they choose otherwise, like Naser Khader of the newly founded Democratic Muslims, you put democracy first, nationality second and islam third. He stated that on public tv several times, in newspapers and - of course- have received several death threats by deranged second generation muslim immigrants.

The breaking of orthodox islams stranglehold on people's mind will first subside when the clan family structures are broken. Today it is very costly to break with islam if your family has orthodox members. If you asked a well educated man in private, would he say yes to democracy and no to sharia he might answer yes, of course. Put a camera up his nose and have him say that in public. He will most likely not dare due to peer pressure. This also means that the power of the imams should be diminished. The danish priests do not concern themselves with politics in the media, nor should the imams. But someone, apparantly, decided that they are qualified to speak on behalf of muslims. Which I believe is the mistake, as Skybird have mentioned earlier. Or at least I think that was the gist of his long rants :)

I reiterate my sentiment from earlier debates. Islam is used as a political tool. Always has been. Is still. People choose or are forced to choose this particular way. To give them a real choise means to allow them to say no to orthodox islam without receiving death threats. Unfortunately that is the case right now.

It is the people that is the problem, not the religion. Once we thought the pope was almighty and the church dogma untouchable. But some stood up and hammered an eloquent if slightly long "FU!" on the church door of Wittenberg. See what happened. We patiently await a muslim theologist with enough cojones to do that.

And no, Skybird, before you launch into a 95 paragraph explanation of why islam cannot change, I disagree. Islam can change if the believers want it, no matter what the prophet said or did not say.

That doesn't mean I believe we should just sit down and let fickle muslims throw hissy fits all over the place everytime someone pokes fingers at Mohammed. Enough of that, no more groveling. We will not submit.

Where did you see this update? Even the Copenhagen Post newspaper says nothing about this since the original story was published on the 6th.
Definitely. I'm glad you used the term "Islam" and not "Muslims".
That's true about Islam, too, or conceptually about any group association.
He is an Islamic apostate. So what is your point?
Some of the most well known Islamic terrorists, including Mphamed Atta and many more, were western educated, had no lack of money, etc., and yet.................

Bin Laden is worth billions but he doesn't care. It's what Allah wants that counts. Either you're a believing Muslim or you're not. There is no middle ground.
Islam grants them the powers. To diminish them means putting Islam on a leash first. And you grand plan is what exactly?
You do not understand the all-encompassing essence of Islam. Politics is no different that personal life. All must be performed to please Allah by following Allah's teachings and commandments as handed down by Mohamed. Nothing is excluded from Islam's scope. This is a critical point.
Islam and Islam's teachings. And who exactly has disqualified them?
I do not believe that Skybird said this but let us await his reply.
That is essential Islam - not a mutated rendition of it.
It is written in the Quran and ahaddiths. It is taught by the greatest of Islam's jurists throughout the centuries. It is not a particular way. It is THE way of Islam.
Then you will have to fight Islam.
Prove it.
Skybird will answer this much better than I can from his more accurate knowledge of Christianity. However, in a nutshell, the Emperor of Rome was naked, in the sense that there is no precise commandment or scripture in the new testament that the Pope is holier than............... the Pope. :lol: Is that correct, Skybird?

But as for Islam, please prove to the world that Jihadic Islam is not what Islamic scriptures and sources teach. The world awaits you as its savior. Good luck!
Then it is no longer Islam. It is some fuddy duddy rendition of it. Whether it would be called I-slam or We-slam would simply be a question of semantics.

According to Islam's law, you are already Muslim when you are born as a child of Muslim parents. It is genetic, so to speak :lol: islam already possesses and opwns the still unfold future, that means.

People have strange perception of Islamic identity, and time and again make the mistake to comapare it to western culture, translated into Arabic. they do no realise to what degree it is very, totally, completely ALIEN indeed. The comparison with the events in Wittenberg just is an example. AL is totally, completely, 100%ly, absolutely right, and many international academic experts on Islam agree, that you can'T pick away some unwanted aspects of Islam and then you have a reformated Islam, like you had a reformated church in Europe after Luther. You have something totally different indeed.

Muhammad wanted to rule the world even beyond his death. For that he taught rules and laws that declare it illegal to leave Islam, seek answers outside the Quran, live a live outside Ummah, and so on. He also knew that only totalitarian unity is the guarantee for maximum strnegth of a social network and community. what I call the massive "cultural penetration power" of Islam is coming from it's neverchanging structure and theology, even it'S inability to change and reformate. It means stagnation, but it also means maximum power inside the limits and barriers of these stagnated communal order, and maximum resisting power towards the outside of that community. The bad news about totalitarianism is: it works so extremely well and forms the strongest of all possible social communities - only the price for the individual is hefty. Think of ants, and other state-building insects - the single unit is nothing, the community is an almost irresistable force. - These rules and laws of Islam are considered to be valid once and for all. These are essential and substantial and most basic parts of Islamic ideology, of it's laws and theological demands. If you say they are no longer part of Islam, you are not talking about islam at all. It only is all Islam, or no Islam at all.

I stayed a longer time in Turkey: Kurdistan and Anatolia. The poor heartland, where around 80% of Turkish people are living. This is not the Westernized tourist metrpoles that give the imprerssion of Turkey being a Western state. This is the turkish reality, harsh and extrneely poor. for many it is a fight for most essential survival. Plus in the East, there is war and coinstant fighting, sometimes noticed by world medias, sometimes not. And here, ultra-orthodox Islam always was alive, and was hiding from Attaturk's reach and attempt to supress it. It is totally wrong to think that laicism ever was in control of Turkish Islam - Islam was not dead, but was hiding, sleeping during a winter, and now has awakened again - and the military and Attaturk and laicism was not able to do anything about it to prevent it. I have repeatedly explained some impressions from those times that I collected, I must not repeat all that again. I just refer to it again to illustrate how unmoving and undividable Islamic ideology is. western liberties and rights and demcoracy - are no match for that determined attidue of mind.

People here sometimes attack my oncompromised stand against Islam and try to label me as being blind towards Islam's true nature. but I insist I am not so determined because I do not know Islam, but because I know it's ideological drive, it's political motivation, and it's heart and essence so well now, both by theoretic study and experience in real life.

The most competent critic of Islam that I do know of (both in english and German language) is H.-P. Raddatz, a studied orientalist and internationally reputated Islam-expert, and the ammounts of background references in his books both to Christian and church and Islamic theology and history as well are monumental, making his voluminous books very demanding to read. It is not by random chance that his extremely detailed knowledge also makes him the most unforgiving and uncompromising critics of Islam that I have ever red. Knowledge about Islam must turn you into a sceptic and critic of it sooner or later. John Paul II. was a layman concerning Islam, and consequently his policies towards it were naive and led to growing distortions in the perception of islam and the chances of a dialogue. Benedict is an intimate expert of Islam, a reputation he has held since long inside the church: and he has taken a far more realistic and thus: tougher stand towards Islam. Islam needs the uneducation of people, both amongst it's followers, and the infidels, thus it limits education to the Quran and Hadith, and has ruled out all sciences and arts that are knowledge-oriented and not exclusively focussing on pragmatic uses. And thus it tries to deceive and hide and prevent any objective information of infidels about it's true inner core and mechanisms. Islam does not lead to higher knowledge - it prevents knowledge. What wisdom means in the teachings of Jesus or Buddha - is dogmatic obedience and believing in the teaching of Muhammad.

Raddatz is also one of the most-hated troublemakers and saboteurs of the "dialogue", killing illusions of western naivists with simple overwhelming academical proof and evidence taken from Islam's scriptures and history itself. No wonder that european lefties love that he had fled to the US, and is threatend by Muslim murders. there has been anti-raddatz hate-sites in the past, just wishing him death and all hell - and run not by Muslims, but by western dialogue-drunken "pacifists".

Too bad his books are not available in English, Avon Lady, you would love him. His books are also excellent reference works.

His coreworks are "Von Gott zu Allah?", "Von Allah zum Terror?" and "Allahs Schleier-Die Frau im Kampf der Kulturen", these three books are forming a trilogy of thopurough academical analysis on Islamic history, ideology and scripture. There also is "Die türkische Gefahr. Risiken und Chancen", and just released: "Iran: Persische Hochkultur und irrationale Macht", which I still have not red myself. If you read just the trilogy, you will be equipped with a very fundamental, clear-seeing and illusion-killing knowledge about Islamic history, scripture and theology. I recommend these three books before any others that I know in English or German. I red many other books, too, of course, but these i consider to be the best. He also is unforgiving in his criticism of the west, and the church, btw. It is hard to accuse him of one-sided bias. Islam's strength not only derives from it totalitarian monolithism, but also from the weakness of illusions of the West - Raddatz makes that hurting truth very clear. He refuses to accept irrational compromise, and plain lies.

Before next time somebody accuses me of not being informed on real Islam - make sure your own knowledge is at least of that standard.

You are not well informed. There were quite some people. they enjoyed an early death or a lifelong hosting in a zero-star hotel. famous Sahaladin himself for example ordered the execution of some of the most promising reformists. none of the reformed ways of islamic thinking ever developed forming influence inside Islam. this includes the Sufis, whose influence is perceived extremely over-exaggerated in the West (btw, Sufis in Iran by new laws are effectivly being thrown to the wolves currently). Teachers that could maybe be understood as a Muslim pendant to mystic religion had been wioped out during the mongolian attack on Perisa. after the destruction of Bagdhad, whatever mystic Islam ever had, was dead. we met Sufi cycles two times in Turkey, and I found it disgusting. It was no living mystic, but cheap mysticism, self-mutilation, mixing up mystic experience with sensation-hungry performances and primitive superstition.

Maybe this is the one great weaknesses of Islam that makes it so dangerous: that it has no living heart, no living mystic. A religion that has no immediate mystic experience, is no religion, but dead dogma that lives or dies with the obeying of superstituous beliefs only.

and to cut short the many answers I could give to various parts of the dialogue between Immacolata and AL, some days ago there was a Muslim woman on TV, living int the US, and being very critical of "conservative Islam". She said something, one sentence, that Scandium, Immacolata and other guys like these should contemplate about and inhale it and make it a part of their thinking: "It is not only religion, it is not only politics, it is not only both of it in one form: Islam is our life, and our death. Islam is all." Another muslim women from the US said something very similiar in the video "Obesession" that somebody has linked to two weeks ago or so, if I recall it correctly, she also said "Islam is our life, it is all what life is about."

Jihad.

How do you interpret the word?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

"Jihad, sometimes spelled Jahad, Jehad, Jihaad, Djehad or Cihad, (Arabic: جهاد‎ ǧihād) is an Islamic term, from the Arabic root ǧhd ("to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle"), which connotes a wide range of meanings: anything from an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to a political or military struggle. Individuals involved in the political or military forms of jihad are often labeled with the neologism "jihadist" or "jihadi".

The term "jihad" is often used to describe purely physical and military "religious war", through physical struggle. Some Muslim scholars say that this only makes up part of the broader meaning of the concept of jihad. The denotation is of a struggle, challenge, difficulty or (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or as resistance. A person who engages in any form of jihad can be called a mujahid (in plural: mujahidin) (Arabic: striver, struggler). Such a person might engage in fighting as a military struggle for religious reasons, or for example, struggle to memorize the Qur'an. Jihad has gained a negative connotation and reputation in much of the West because of its usage by various groups classified by the United States of America as terrorist organizations as part of its War on terror. The Jihad had a reputation for this at the time."

Editorial comment comming!:huh: :huh: :huh:

Enlightment on the word of Islam comming from a Christian and a Jew.

(Tie in to original post comming)

We should hold a cartoon contest about the subject and submit it to a Dannish Newpaper. Maybee the winner could get an all expenses paid trip to his or her favorite religious site! :D

if this is still about the depiction of the profit (ahem sorry the prophet)
after all financail profit - spiritual profit...what does a man profit etc etc..
it's all about being one step up some ladder or another than your fellow human beings..status power rank etc etc both on earth and in heaven...

back to the subject...i fail to see how the depiction of a religiuos leader thru a cartoon can be any more influencail than the depiction of a religiuos leader thru a series of actions or inactions...if Bin Laden's depiction of the Prophet thru various acts of terrorism is not offensive to muslims...then how is it a cartoon can be considered offensive...?

there were world wide muslim protests at the publiction of the original cartoon...but no comparable world wide protest at the acts of terrorism...now call me an idiot for musing on this inconsistency...but it's precisely these sorts of details that reveal the true nature of peoples beliefs...IMO

power control and manipulation is all this has ever been about

I have no possible way to argue against any of you. Especially not you skybird, with your massive information carpet bombing.

So let us take for a fact that Islam is a dogmatic religion that is unable to change without changing the religion into something new.

However, dogma is only upheld by dogmatists. The words of the quran are meaningless if do not read them. Or they are powerless if you do not heed them. That goes for all religions or philosophies. Or the meaning change if you revise the quran. You both seem to agree that Islam is unchangeable, and as history so far has not shown us otherwise, I guess that is what we have to take it for.

But how do you tell millions of europeans that are muslims that their religion is wrong?