The ugly side of submarine warfare
 

If anyone wants to check the terrible price paid by crews of torpedoed ships, just look at this example of a successful attack by U-107 (Gelhaus) against convoy OS-44, 05:30Z / 13 March 1943 which sank four ships:

MARCELLA - Manchester/Freetown - General cargo - 44 lost (no survivors)
OPORTO - Liverpool/Sevilla - Sulphate copper and seeds - 43 lost (4 survivors)
CLAN ALPINE - Liverpool/Sudan - General cargo - 26 lost (68 survivors)
SEMBILANGAN - Liverpool/Alejandría - General cargo - 86 lost (1 survivor)

199 lives taken by one torpedo salvo...

And their terrible price was much more important than other deaths in the war.

I don't think that is what the poster was saying.

JCC

Re: The ugly side of submarine warfare
 

Given that the attack occurred in 1943 - by which time rescue equipment had improved - and that it was against vessels carrying mainly nonhazardous cargoes, the reason for the loss of life was probably bad weather. Rough seas could make it almost impossible to abandon ship even if there were enough rafts and boats. Then there was the problem of finding survivors in the limited visibility, even if they DID abandon ship successfully. OTOH, if the weather was good and you were sailing in convoy I'd assume your chances of getting picked up would be fairly good - as long as your ship wasn't carrying iron ore, aviation fuel, etc

Believe me, I think about that every time I fire an eel. Who am I killing? I'm just glad it's only numbers in a computer that are doing the dying...

But while we're at it, think of the terrible price paid by the u-boat crews. Most of them never came back from their last patrol.

Imagine being in a crippled boat, grounded 100 feet below crush depth - it's holding together - but just barely. Batteries running out, oxygen running out, destroyers storming around all over the place, and maybe hours to think about what's going to happen to you, and how you're never going to see your family again...

At least for the merchantmen, it was quick and sudden and unexpected I imagine. And some had at least a chance to survive. When a u-boat's hull is crushed at 700 feet, no one survives.

OK, so history tells us they were the "bad guys", but the truth is, they were patriotic soldiers doing their duty for their country, at the almost certain cost of their own lives. Whether they were right or wrong, I have a tremendous amount of respect for those men.

And finally, let's think about the terrible price paid by anyone involved in a war - no matter what side they're on, no matter whether they're actually fighting in it or not. Just think of Dresden, or London, or Hiroshima, or Stalingrad - 100's of thousands killed, and most non-combatants.

War sucks, but sadly it seems to be a part of our nature...

Re: The ugly side of submarine warfare
 

It was also almost impossible to rescue sailors during night attacks.

"War is not nice."
- Barbara Bush, 1945

"It is only fitting that the price of war is so terrible... Else we would grow to like it too much."

-paraphrased from General Robert E. Lee - American Civil War

I believe that places like this forum will make going to war more difficult in the future. Here, you speak with people from many nations. You speak with people who at one time or another... may have been an enemy to your own country.

Places like this forum often create understanding and tolerance... where there may have been none before.

You haven't spent a lot of time on general topics have you?? :rotfl:

Just kidding. :-j Nice sentiment. :yep:

I totally agree.

The ugly side of submarine warfare
 

Hi joea! Nice to find you here too. Had the same thoughts.
If one of the moderators (Gizzmoe of course!) transfers this post to the General Topic Forum all hell will break loose!
I'm sure a few subsimmers would love to sink my boat in real life!
:rotfl:

Dont forget the putrid smell of men who havent bathed in a while, the choking fumes of the batteries as they break and the acid mixes with the saltwater, the lights flickering on or off or staying off totally and leaving the men in the dark, the sound of the steel plates compressing under the pressure, the dreaded conculsion that they will die but cannot do anything about it.

Dont forget that it takes a sub some time to reach crush depth. Also the crew cannot do anything but wait for that moment when a plate or weld finally breaks and the sea implodes inward to crush them.

War doesnt decide who is right, it only decides who is left.

There is nothing more inhuman than war. All who are engaged in war suffer but its human nature to kill if only for sport but for war.

You can basically break war down to one simple sentence.

"Somebody wants something someone else has"

Take any war, and you can see that this sentence works 99.9% of the time.

Re: The ugly side of submarine warfare
 

Yep. IIRC Gunther Prein once sank three ships in a convoy at night so quickly that the other ships didnt'e even miss them - the "Neptunian", "Gro" , and "Jose de Larrinaga". Two sank with no survivors and one lost about 1/3 of its crew. The survivors were forced to leave behind two men who abandoned ship too late; eventually both of their bodies were picked up after floating for almost a month. It couldn't have been a pretty sight...

A relative of mine was shipped to America for the duration of WW2...

She was a child at the time (about 6 i believe)

Now, I dont feel sorry for the U-Boat crew for the following reason...

The Ship my relative was on was clearly a civilian vessel...women n kids on decks...

Now the Germans thiught it fair to (Unsuccessfully luckily) torpedo the ship several times,

Said relative still has nightmares about watchin the pedoes headed towards her ship, one did hit, and failed to detonate

So, while I know ppl did as they were told (ie boat crew) but One person decided to fire, and I hope he got what he deserved !

Submarine warfare is never pretty, regardless of who wages it.

It is sometimes forgotten that what the Germans tried in the Atlantic (annihilate commercial shipping), the Americans successfully did in the Pacific. Not much military personnel on all these ships.

The Worst Attack on a Passenger liner in WW2.
 

Probably the Worst Attack on a Passenger carrying Ship in WW2
Was Acctually against the M.S. WILHELM GUSTLOFF a german ship ship in early 1945. Over 9000 people were crammed into a ship built to hold 1500 trying to escape the wraith of the advanceing Soviet forces. Of the refugees, a staggering four thousand are infants, children and youths on their way to promising safety in the West.
It was Topedoed by the S-13 a Soviet Submarine.


http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/sinking.htm

Re: The ugly side of submarine warfare
 

Just curious, do you have further details on this one?

CityOfBenares

Read the last part of the text...scary... :down:

Re: The ugly side of submarine warfare
 

From uboat.net:

Name: Oporto
Type: Steam merchant
Tonnage: 2.352 tons
Completed: 1928 - Ramage & Ferguson Ltd, Leith
Owner: Ellerman & Papayanni Lines Ltd, Liverpool
Homeport: Liverpool
Date of attack: 13 Mar, 1943 Nationality: British

Fate: Sunk by U-107 (Harald Gelhaus)
Position: 42.45N, 13.31W - Grid CG 1218
- See location on a map -
Complement: 47 (43 dead and 4 survivors).
Convoy: OS-44
Route: Liverpool - Seville
Cargo: 1500 tons of sulphate of copper, 413 tons of seed, potatoes and mail
History:

Notes on loss: At 05.30 hours on 13 Mar, 1943, U-107 attacked the convoy OS-44 190 miles west of Cape Finisterre and reported hits on three ships. In fact, four ships were hit, the Clan Alpine, Marcella, Oporto and Sembilangan.
The master, 35 crew members and seven gunners from the Oporto (Master Fred Bird) were lost. Four crew members were picked up by the HMS Spiraea (K 08) (Lt A.H. Pierce OBE), transferred to HMS Gentian (K 90) (LtCdr H.H. Russell DSC) and landed at Gibraltar.

Still, I always get the feel that being at sea and sea warfare in general was always more noble than fighting in trenches and being under the flamethrowers of marching SS armies. As in sailors still had some honour code and respected the opposition, unlike what's been going on on land, a total bloodbath, especially on the eastern front where I feel it was even more ruthless and without any types of rules of engagements.