Jasonb885's new RND file; a big step forward for all SH3
 

After resetting this I was able to open this new RND file for a good look. While no doubt everything is a work in progress and we all have our own interpretation of historic events I can safely say this is hands down the best work done to date on the RND.mis file. This should be the basis for future efforts and be considered the bench mark. RUB is way behind on the RND file with a simple single ship spawn and report reduction while this customizes things and better represents the convoys we all love to hunt down.
But, I also have a view different views on what was done.
This is not as much criticism but more suggestions to further a very good piece of work.
I would now rather advise on this and tweak J885s efforts than continue making my own. His work is too well done and the error free program he made to construct this is paramount to the success of a nearly 6 MB text file that one mistake can ruin (trust me, I know)

But;
If you are going to ask people to add to the roster why do so just to add a few merchant flags. Why not finish the job all at once with corrected warships.
Destroyers that were commissioned into the Dutch, Norwegian, Polish and Greek navies that were involved in historic events could just have easily been added here. The British transferred 2DDs ( B and E; What are included in the CClass in SH3), 2 Hunt II and 6 Flower class corvettes as well as commissioned directly 4 Hunt III to the Hellenic (Greek) navy to add to those warships that escaped the Nazi conquest of Hellas. They were heavily involved in escorting Med convoys as well as the invasions of Sicily and Italy and earned the respect and admiration of their allies.
Same for the Dutch destroyers (did you know some served in the Med not just the Atlantic) with 2 N-Class DDs (included under the JClass in SH3) commissioned directly into the Dutch Navy. One River class (we don’t actually have a real River in SH3) and one Flower were transferred to the Dutch boys.
Besides the later S-class DDs (not in SH3) Norway received 5 “Flush Deckers� from the US 1940-42, 2 Hunt III in 42, and a Hunt II in 44 and 6 flower class were in Norwegian service.
The Poles received a G-class (CClass in SH3) and an N and an M (Included in SH3 as Jclass) as well as 3 Hunt II (one was lost off Malta!!!)
By adding these DDs to the correct navies then placing them in the convoys they were likely to participate we add historic reality and we pay just a little tribute to those men that richly deserve it. The above ships fought with distinction and courage from all four nations. No destroyer could be called more heroic than the Greek Hunt III Adrias.
Remember, when a British general said to Churchill “Those Greeks fight like heroes� Churchill replied; “My good sir, Greeks don’t fight like heroes, heroes fight like Greeks�

Wulfmann :rock:

Because as you say, it's a work in progress, and the work to date has focused primarily on the merchant aspect. The rosters were filled out to get the right types of merchants into the convoys, and there's still quite a bit of work to be done with the merchants, especially on convoys were we lack information. (Med for example).

I'd be interested in any warship info you might have. It's an area I think we're weak at right now.

I can send you the names of the ships and near dates as often these are simply listed as "1942". But, since SH3 uses the launch dates as enter service dates for all DDs being anywhere in the ball park will likely be closer than we presently have. To actually correct the dates (and we would still not be accurate only more so) would be monumetal and actually not change the play much. Even the things I suggested above it would be hard to know if the Adrias is on my tail as compared to anything else as I play 100%.
But, being anal on this is not a bad idea as it is part of the fun of tweaking.
It is no worse to be more accurate than not.
I would also like to see an occasional Revenge class as a 30% in a few late 40 early 41 convoys as they actaully were just as CLs were close escorts on troop and Arctic convoys.
The improved convoys is the right direction to a better game play and may be the single most important improvement to date
Wulfmann

Hey, Jason is looking exactly for that kind of data! In fact one of the problems we've been having is that we don't have enough info on certain convoys. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to put the right escorts in the right convoys, given the right data. He's done it with the Canadians already...

Any light on this is definitely appreciated.

Well I thought I had deleted the rosters but I found them all. The above mentioned ships already to drop in with correct names etc so adding them would be easy.
Basically we have generic convoys that represent the idea of convoys so we don't have to be exact as SH3 is certainly not.
From mid 1942 you could simply add Greek type 4 to convoys in the Med and it would be possible if not likely as they did so. I do not know about the other nations and Atlantic convoys but hopefully others will read this and offer info. Stuff like the blah blah DD from Norwy was in a convoy in a year etc.
PM an email add and I will send over the rosters for the 4 countries with all the right ships and names. It will save a lot of work and its already done.

You might also consider a stock RND.mis file. That is, one where you do not include these new warships or the additional merchants now required to use the new RND.
By dropping the classes you could still leave the fact a Norwegian merchant was in the convoy but for those that don't update a roster the KSS or KSQ would spawn while those that do could have the KLS.
Even a Med convoy that asked for Greek type 4 could spawn the incorrect stock Hunt I while other would get the II or II that updated their roster.
Many just won't want to do much modding and a simple version would improve their play as this is good enough that a wound down round file would be a big improvement by itself.
Just an opinion.
Wulfmann

That was one of my primary requirements, and why I have shied away from using Sergbuto's new transport and cargo ship. However, the new rosters are simply required for a reasonable representation of convoys. At some point a mod is so bland that it's a waste of time to create it or it's useless by limiting changes beyond a certain level.

I'd like to add recommends for Sergbuto's Hampton Class Light Cruiser and Observer's accurate tonnage SH3 Commander mod, but I won't attempt to integrate such things directly.

It's a shame there's no real dependency management system for installing SH3 additions coupled with a patch management system of sorts. Unfortunately the degree of complexity is likely too high for the majority of mods and modders.

Another important note is, ship entry dates can generally _only_ be earlier, not later. (Except for merchants where they'll likely to never be explicitly specified in the RND layer, although with merchant ships at anchor in the v1.4b patch, if any VVs are at anchor before 1944 they won't show up.) Some of the corrections that need be done result in ships entering the war later. That might crash the SCR layer in some instances which isn't acceptable, or at the very least have whole escort groups not appear.

I do not wish to provide a modified SCR layer because the Ops mod is already heavily modifying that for other purposes, making any kind of integration extremely difficult. It's not a road I wish to travel presently.

To echo others, the primary elements lacking presently are South Equatorial convoys and Mediteranean (hah, spelled it right without looking it up for the first time!) convoy information.

I am somewhat leery of including any BBs in North Atlantic fast convoys at 9 kts, because they're such obvious targets and it's extremely easy to score a kill on such things without doubling or trippling the escort protection. It's not possible to include the shadowing escort force that would surely protect the capital ship.

I would consider large warships in military convoys, but there's little information on those. I am considering using what the developers have for convoys such as AS and simply expanding upon it so it's larger, with perhaps some escort tweaks. (HG only has like 10 ships for example.)

Uhhhmmmm....... Mediterranean. :D

zz

I've been tweaking Serg's Nationality mod by editing the DefSide.cfg file, creating new recognition manual covers for the new countries added, and creating roundels for some of the non-represented airforces. I think coupling that with Wulfmann's rosters of warships would really help give this a boost. Is there a way to incorporate the Nationality mod into your and Jason's mod? Or would it be better to add the corrected rosters into the updated nationality mod? Serg is working on more countries to add to that as we speak...

Really?

Konqueror didn't complain, so I assumed I had it correct for once.

Apparently not. Back to dictionary.com again. Some days you just get tired of proofing your work before posting...

:ping:

The only country generally missing from convoys at this point is Panama. No other countries participated in convoys to the extent that I can effectively represent them. Given each convoy definition is static for its run period in game and we're limited to some 30 - 45 ships for the game to be playable for most people it would provide difficult to add any other nations into convoys.

I can't, and won't, presume to speak for Serg on this, as any cooperation between us is loose at best...having said that, I would envision the additional countries consisting of local traffic, coastal shipping and the like.

Historically, it was the sinking of a 2nd Mexican tanker which led to that country's declaration of war; Brazil declared war after several of its ships were torpedoed, and Argentina and Spain lodged vehement protests with Berlin when their neutrality was violated.

You are, as usual, 100% correct in your assessment of the convoys Jason, so I think I'll look at making local traffic in the specific areas. If Serg is working on this, perhaps I can assist him.

At any rate, the more (ships) the merrier?

One of the things I did with my RND files (before I put your in)was reduce to nearly nothing the coastal traffic of fishing boats and the like.
Even if you incorporate the historic info I compiled for the roster update the user would have to have the roster or your RND could not be used. But, the way you have done that it must have your roster updates so that would be OK. I would only suggest adding the DDs to convoys in the RND and not doing a SCR update. I would suggest that using an SCR that corrects the Hunt class only be considered as that is a super easy fix. replacing the early ones at the beginning with another DD and simply backing up the others by one Type. That is remove the type I, then make the typeII, the type I, then make the type III the type II. They would be corrected and nothing else would be disturbed. The SCR actually calls for exact ships not just the class as the RND does, but you likely know that.
I have already redone the convoys in your RND to suit my take on history for my game.
Very little almost no single traffic.
Wulfmann

I don't understand why the Hunt Class is such a huge concern. I would wager you mention the discrepancy in almost every single post you make about the RND and SCR layers. It's that bothersome?

How much single ship traffic should there be in '39 and '40, based on your sources?

Sure. Since I can process any RND layer, I'll merely need the updated SH3 v1.4b RND layer when it's complete and that can be used as a basis. However, I'd need all the new rosters for the new nations and all the related material and it would all need to be included in ImprovedConvoys to work.

Or whenever you have an updated RND layer I could merely process it and pass it back to you and who ever wants to release a RND mod with increased single ship nationalities could do so.

My primary focus is convoys, in any event. Convoys are what the game's about.

Please, I wasn't proofreading your post. It caught my eye and then when you said in the parenthesis you finally got it right, I couldn't resist razzing for a minute. To be honest I had to check with Merriam-Webster. :D

Sorry if I offended you, I like to joke and tease sometimes.

zz

Heh, no, it's okay. I found it amusing I was wrong anyway.

;)

While there are even worse problems with accurate ship info, most notably the River class which is not the River class at all but the A-D class that were modified to be convoy escorts, the Hunt do bother me more. The River actually come in when the converted A-D would so are just wrongly named ships that would be there.
While all the DDs use the launch dates that are 3-8 months earlier than the ships should enter service, The Hunt classes, all of them, totally ignore historic reference and enter a year or more than they should even before some were laid down and way before launching.
The first two Hunt class type I were launched on December 12, 1939 and entered service late spring of 1940. They were very unstable and had to be modified so it actually may have been much later than that.
SH3 has them enter in 1937.
You think that is OK?????
Would a XXI entering at the end of 1941 be OK????? Same difference in time!!!
The SH3 Hunt type II enters in June of 1940 or about when the type I should start to come into SH3. The first type II to be launched was August 20, 1940 and did not enter service until the end of the year or about 1-1-1941.
All the type II in SH3 enter 6-40 where most actually entered in early 1942 or later.
The type III in SH3 enters in 6-41. The very first type III launched was July 23, 1941. Most were launched in 42 and they entered service from about 1-1-42 to mid 1943. So the type II is closer but still in use before one empty hull even touched the water.

No disrespect intended but to feel the same SH3 tanker should have a different flag to better represent realistic convoy make up when the escort may not be in existence for years to come, correcting that seems even more necessary for realism. But, that is just my opinion.

While SH3 did this in similar ways to other ships like adding all the classes from K-Q to the Jclass and have them in service at the beginning when those were 2-3 years away, well, at least the class was there, not so with the Hunt.
My point was correcting the Hunt is not very hard to do while the other s would be complex to edit
I noticed you moved up the Black Swan class which was the only escort class they actually placed near correct entered service dates on in SH3.
However, the Egret class of which the Black Swan derived, are so close to utilize them at the war's start in the Black Swan name is far more accurate than calling the various ships included in the JClass which are not at all close to the J.
To see a Black Swan type attacking you in Sept 1939 would be possible.
A Hunt class, totally impossible.
When we can, totally impossible should be corrected, IMO
Wulfmann

I would think changing the roster dates for the Hunt class would not be that difficult and stays with the out of the box approach thus far. We've adjusted the entry dates for mechants, why not the Hunts?

That is easy but not all that must be done.
The dates for the various classes must be edited for the RND file, which is also not hard.
But, the SCR names specific ships such as Hunt Type I #2.
It must be done correctly to not cause a problem and the first ships in the SCR are the type I Hunt class.
That means you must make sure if you replace that Hunt type I #2 with a V&W #3 that the same ship, V&W #3 is not in use on that time stretch in the SCR or it will CTD. Once the first group is exchanged, the other Hunts are simply backed up. A Hunt II can be changed to a Hunt I, a Hunt III can be changed to a Hunt II etc. All dates for the ships must be rechecked to be sure there are no overlaps for those patrols.
Wulfmann

I can't imagine why the River can't just be renamed the A-D then?

So I noticed.

I think it's unfortunate. I don't think it's worth a freakout though.

Not really. The player drives the sub, so having an uber-sub in 1941 would be silly. But having an extra destroyer available in a game where there are few warships models doesn't bother me. The alternative is to have even fewer escorts available for a longer period of time.

I think I could recite this from memory now...

None taken. I merely feel you're missing the forest for the trees here. But that's okay. Our goals are different. I am attempting to bring the greatest benefit to the largest number of players with the least amount of investment possible. I have succeeded.

Including historic nations in convoys, for example, is a rather simple exercise. Especially so in light of everyone and his dog having dibs on the SCR layer for the mod-of-the-week regarding ship traffic. It's too much hassle to kick out my own mod for the SCR with realistic entry dates for Hunt Class destroyers when it'll conflict with 5,000 people's different variant of some harbor traffic mod. It's just not worth my time either trying to organize everyone (if anyone cares) so our changes can be properly applied using a tool like `diff` so they're easy to manage or modding everyone's new SCR to include the correct changes myself. Thanks, but no.

It's extremely complicated. See above with regard to dozens of SCR implementations and people's deep burning need to use them which would immediately conflict with ImprovedConvoys, resulting in it likely getting the Recyle Bin. God forbid someone not have their harbor traffic.

Yes, I moved the Black Swan because it's listed as a sloop and sloops saw action early in the war as convoy escorts. The only one available is the Black Swan, even if it's not a sloop, so there it is. Oops.

If you'd like to provide some additional ship models, _that_ would be helpful and appreciated.

It's not as trivial as you believe. But feel free to _organize_ the modders and setup a repository where people can check in changes to a global SCR file using, say, Subversion, and still manage to keep stuff separated to the degree that people don't freak out when there's too much/too little/no harbor traffic to speak of or whatever.

It's not worth my time.

I'll modify the entry dates for the Hunt Class if you can give me a list of which RndGroup BRPatrols will be effected and that you don't care that they won't spawn anymore.

Otherwise, enough with the Hunter Class. Talk to someone in a SCR modification thread about it. I can't help you.

I apologize for the tone, but I haven't seen a post from you yet that isn't primarily about the Hunt Class destroyers having inaccurate entries dates in any thread that mentions the RND and SCR layers. Seriously, just fix it on your end and be happy.