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where does consciousness begin ?

Well according to this science article it has it's start in quantum physics

Quote:

A decades-old and controversial theory suggesting that quantum effects in the brain could explain consciousness may hold more weight than scientists gave it credit for.

The nature of consciousness has long puzzled us. One idea, traditionally seen as far fetched, is that the unusual laws that govern the quantum world could be behind what allows us to experience consciousness, New Scientist reports.

https://futurism.com/human-conscious...uantum-physics

Markus

:hmmm:

Quote:

… Unfortunately for such attitudes, consciousness is not just an epiphenomenon, a strange concomitant of our neural activity that we project onto physical reality. On the contrary, all that we know, including all our science, is in our consciousness. It is part, not of the superstructure, but of the foundations. No consciousness, no science. Perhaps, indeed, no consciousness, no reality -- of which more later.

Though consciousness is the essential condition for all science, science cannot deal with it. That is not because it is an unassimilable element within science, but just the opposite: science is a highly digestible element within consciousness, which includes science as a limited territory within the much wider reality of whose existence we are conscious. Consciousness itself lies outside the parameters of space and time that would make it accessible to science, and that realization carries an enormous consequence: consciousness cannot be located. But more: it has no location. - George Wald

https://www.elijahwald.com/lifeandmind.html

I "think" most of us have opinions about where it isn't. :Kaleun_Wink:

I think its indispensable to separate mind/consciousness from - in absence of a better term - spirit. The first has its basis in structured matter, without matter coming to according form, mind/consciousness cannot form and cannot prevail. They are a function of matter and structure. The latter - spirit - however is and must remain to be an object of speculation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddahaid (Post 2806952)

I "think" most of us have opinions about where it isn't. :Kaleun_Wink:

Agree there have been times in my life I suffered from what doctors would define as a ‘rectal cranial inversion’. And I tell you with all certainty consciousness is not up there. :haha:

Where does consciousness come from? Does your consciousness exist before you are born? If so, where is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal (Post 2806965)

Where does consciousness come from? Does your consciousness exist before you are born? If so, where is it?

Mine's over at Heinhold's First and Last Chance Saloon.
https://www.heinoldsfirstandlastchance.com/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal (Post 2806965)

Where does consciousness come from? Does your consciousness exist before you are born? If so, where is it?

Consciousness is a funtion of brain activity.

Automatted behaviour and reaction is instincts (which again get processed partially in the brain, partially directly in the peripheral neurons).

Whether there is a mind, or as I called it: spirit, without matter structured in a brain, is a metaphysical speculation - knowing for certain we do not anything, many however believe in claimed answers.

Atman and Anatman: Buddha said no individual Atman/ego (or mind) survives death, but there were the real, the non-ego (anatman) pointing to a quality that is bigger and beyond the individual existence. "Show me your true face that you had before you and you mother and father were born" is a famous koan in Zen.

In the end the miracle lies in that things, that all this even exist. Why do they? Why isn't there just nothing? All we perceive however is not what things, existence, cosmos really is like, because we perceive according to the individual design of the physical sensor used. We can conclude the sensor is what it is becasue it follows a physical need that dictates the form: but where did this proces start, and why? We do not deal with reality, but our imagination/interpretation of it. We deal with our own model - not with what the model is claimed to describe.

That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

I stand amid the roar
Of a surf-tormented shore,
And I hold within my hand
Grains of the golden sand —
How few! yet how they creep
Through my fingers to the deep,
While I weep — while I weep!
O God! Can I not grasp
Them with a tighter clasp?
O God! can I not save
One from the pitiless wave?
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?

E.A. Poe

I remember an interesting thing that happened when my Niece was about ½-1 year old.

I was holding her and showed her the mirror-Look I said that's you.
My little sister replied..She hasn't developed her consciousness yet
When she said this I started to study my niece face expression when see looked at the mirror and I didn't see any changes.

My conclusion after having studied her with the mirror is:
It does not exclude that she does not have a consciousness
Even though she does not know what she see in the mirror.

Markus

Left mine at subsim door I figure with the folks around here it would get corrupt anyway

I found this science article in a Danish science magazine.

Quote:

When did humans become conscious?
When in human history did consciousness arise, asks a reader. We take a trip back in time to find the answer.

For millennia, philosophers and religionists have dictated that consciousness makes humans special. In other words, consciousness sets man apart from all other animals.

That has one of our readers wondering:

"So when in human history did consciousness emerge?" writes the reader in an email to 'Ask Science'.

We pick up the readers question and pass it on to Professor of Evolutionary Studies at Aarhus University Peter C. Kjærgaard. Maybe he can tell us when humans first realised they were human

Definition of biological consciousness

Before we can answer the Reader's question, however, we must first define what consciousness actually is.

In this context, philosophers have come up with many different definitions over the years:

Some of the more commonly used definitions are subjectivity and the capacity to experience or feel. So is 'the ability to be aware of something inside oneself'.

In an evolutionary context, however, we have to use a slightly different kind of definition, says Peter C. Kjærgaard.

"Consciousness is, in an evolutionary sense, a banal tool that helps us gain a better and more nuanced picture of reality and the world around us. Consciousness gives the individual the ability to look at himself, look inwards and see how other individuals react in certain situations. As such, consciousness is the ultimate tool of social man," he says of the biological definition of consciousness.

Cavemen had consciousness

If we look back at the history of human evolution, we can now make a few hints here and there in the search for the origins of consciousness.

40,000 years ago, cave men drew paintings in some caves in Spain. Did the cave dwellers have consciousness?

"In order to be able to make the paintings, it is necessary that 40,000 years ago the cavemen had consciousness. After all, it took an enhanced view of reality to depict it," says Peter C. Kjærgaard and continues:

"At the same time, it is interesting that new studies show that some of the cave paintings were probably made by Neanderthals and not Homo sapiens. So we can immediately conclude that consciousness is not unique to our species, but has also existed in other species."

Consciousness has existed for millions of years

Looking further back through the line of ancestors, several of them also show signs of consciousness in the form of cave paintings, social structures and the desire to use colours to decorate themselves.

Homo sapiens have consciousness, and apparently so did Neanderthals. This means that consciousness emerged at least 600 000 years ago.

Homo erectus also had consciousness. They used it to make the first trip of the human race out of Africa. Their emergence can be dated back 1.8 million years.

Homo habilis also had consciousness 2.3 million years ago, as did Australopithecus afarensis 3.9 million years ago.

"We so want consciousness to be something great and fine and very special to humans. But it just isn't. As our ancestors evolved, their brains grew, and so did their consciousness. It all happens in an interplay between diet, social complexity and climate. Our earlier ancestors certainly had consciousness too. We just have more of it today," says Peter C. Kjærgaard.

Monkeys have consciousness too

So it seems that all human ancestors - since our lineage split from that of chimpanzees - have had consciousness in one form or another.

The question then is: Did the chimps have it too?

Scientists have certainly already investigated that for us.

"There have been experiments with bonobos and chimpanzees to show whether monkeys have consciousness too. The experiments show that monkeys can also learn, plan, receive knowledge and pass on culture. In other words, they also have consciousness," says Peter C. Kjærgaard.

All mammals have consciousness

Consciousness, then, is not exclusive to humans or to the human species in general. Animals have consciousness too.

Nobel Prize-winning neuropsychologist John Carew Eccles, who was particularly interested in the origins of consciousness, suggested that consciousness dates back as much as 200 million years to the time when the first mammals evolved from reptiles.
Peter C. Kjærgaard agrees:

"John Carew Eccles concluded that consciousness is nothing more than a tool for better adaptation to the environment. I agree. Consciousness lies solely in the organisation of the brain. This changed when reptiles became mammals 200 million years ago. With the change in the brain and the emergence of consciousness, mammals became better able to orient themselves to their environment and thus better able to survive," he says.

Humans have more consciousness than other animals

We can thus conclude that the answer to Louise's question must be that consciousness is by no means unique to humans or even to the human species either. It emerged 200 million years ago, while dinosaurs were still roaming the Earth.

All mammals have consciousness. Humans just have more of it, as it has been a clear evolutionary advantage in our social group structure.

"Moreover, consciousness is inextricably linked to brain size and complexity. Here, humans are unmatched by other animals and also by our earlier ancestors. We can see that the brain has grown and become more complex over millions of years. At the same time, there is more of the consciousness that has always been there, after all," says Peter C. Kjærgaard.

We hope the reader finds the answer useful, and thank you for the question with one of our coveted 'Ask Science' T-shirts.

We also thank Peter C. Kjærgaard for making us more aware of human consciousness.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

I found this article very interesting.

Markus

And what about marine mammals? They aslo have large brains but don't have hands to make tools.

More and more animals are beign given the status of being "sentient" beings, latest example: squids. While it was long assumed that fishes do not feel pain, this is no longer a view accepted by every biologist. And our old understanding of bird'S intelligence has seen a revolution in past 30 years or so, and led to a remapping of our understanding of the bird brain. Theiur density in neurosn is much higher than that of apes, mammals, our brains, and so even some bird species' tinier brain mass can show up with intelligence performances and social competences as we usually only see in Bonobos, chimps, humans, etc. - think of parrot species, raven-species, kiwis...

And human babies, from around 18 months on they can recongise themselve sin mirrors, we know that form the Rouge-test: a coloured dot is placed on the face of the baby and then it gets a mirror, when it looks into the mirror, it uses its hand to remove the spot in its real face, not in the relfected image. First primitive differentiations between "me" and "the other" are formed already before that age. Verbal competence to refer to oneself is formed at the end of the second year. Autobiographic self-understanding and self-related memory-reflection forms up from 3rd and 4th year on.

Its obvious to me that there is a clear link between these mental performances, and compexity of neural structures. The brain developes, so do its performances. No brain: no performance.

I have given up to say or think in terms of "its just an animal". The word "just" in this sentence often is not justified, and undeservedly derogatory.

Treat living beings with respect, and kindness. Thats a general ethics. That includes hunting and lifestock farming. I made the experience often that the kindness I gave to an animal feels as if I gave it to myself, independent from the answer of the animal.

Or take the sqiurrels in my garden. They do not seek my closeness, they avpoid me, but I see them on video making heavy use of the water and the nut bar and all that I do to help them over the year and especially winter. I feel good when I see them using all that, and I enjoy that they are in good health, and well-fed, and strong in ohysicla appearance. That is a satisfaciton I gain without me needing to "own" the other being.

How can you keep your love? Let it free to go as it likes. No ownership involved, nor needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc (Post 2807001)

Agree, Just because she didn’t react doesn’t mean she hasn’t developed consciousness. sense data can be confirmed by an observer (your niece) without necessarily implying understanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 2807026)

More and more animals are being given the status of being "sentient" beings, latest example: squids.. [...]

A bit OT in the context of self consciousness, but this has been thought of before.
I remember this little octopus living in an aquarium with neighbouring tanks sideways and above, inhabited by all kinds of sea life.
After some time animals from other tanks began to vanish.. the owner put up a camera and the records clearly showed how the small 'kraken' lifted the heavy glas, climbed into the next tank, even changed vertical shelves, sometimes to play, sometimes to eat .. in the morning he always was in 'his' tank, behaving like "go on, nothing to see here".
He (not it i'd say) clearly remembered me and other guests, and behaved differently. I have also met some underwater, in the mediterranean, but you have to be careful: even smaller ones have an unbelievable strength.

" The Soul of an Octopus: A Surprising Exploration into the Wonder of Consciousness" by Sy Montgomery is a very good book about those earth-developed eight-armed aliens.

Now there is a new study about how some squid species became what they are. Their genome was almost similar to humans (only other 'switches' activated in the sequence), but after a while it began to divert drastically.

"How octopuses and squid have broken away from the previously known pattern of evolution"
https://www.myscience.at/en/news/202...on-2022-univie

They are clearly intelligent, but in a (understandably) very different way. And they do not live very long, otherwise mankind would probably find an underwater civilisation..
Sorry for OT, they are a bit of a hobby of mine :03:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar (Post 2807079)

Agree, Just because she didn’t react doesn’t mean she hasn’t developed consciousness. sense data can be confirmed by an observer (your niece) without necessarily implying understanding.

Development psychology covers the whole human lifespan, so from childhood to high age: chnages in perosnality,. cogntive capacity and so forth. Psychological research on the very young ones and babies has - since decades - quite established data on the development phases of babies and little kids, both on the sequence and the average time marks at which what happens. I gave a very brief overview, and not a complete one (its almiost 30 years I dealt with that...). That is agreed common academical knowedge today. Since half a century. On babies, its not just theory, but plenty of experimental and observational data, like the Rouge Test I mentioned.

^ I left something out of our discussion my Little sister and I had then.

- Are you sure that she doesn't know what she see in the mirror I asked

-Yes expert who know more about consciousness say they develop this after their 2nd year or so. My sister said to me.

I replied
- As you may know, I remember all the way back to my own birth(I'm not kidding you) And remember what I was thinking when I saw myself in the mirror -Who's that ? I even remember thinking Is that another place/parallel world ?

As I said does this mean that we develop a consciousness earlier than expert says we do. or is thinking not the same as having a consciousness-E.g I saw myself but I did not recognize it was me.

Markus

Your neural wiring or your neurotransmitter homeostasis may be different, Markus, you repeatedly said you are medium Asperger. I dont know this state especially well, but I could imagine that its the case. You tick a bit different for that reason, your volume slider for your "mike" is more to the "up" position, where we others get moderate perception intensity, you already may be close to hurting overload intensity - while other things might be processed faster, different or more comprehensive by you than most of us can or would. If itsd true what you say abotu your earl ychildhood memories, than that is very unsual and not representative for the norm of "normal".

Note I say "different", not "better" or "worse". I cannot compare these two state of kinds, since I know only one: mine.

I can only repeat, development psychology for the young has pretty established models and data on the development phases of babies and young kids. Since long time. I never was interested in youth psychology, but had to run basic courses in it as part of the main curriculum, and found it to be one of the best described and researched fields in psychology.

Thank you Skybird for your comment.

As I wrote is thinking the same as consciousness ?
I even remember when I was baptist and what I was thinking-Grow hair through into the nose-My uncle(my mom told me that when I told her about this memories I had) I remember him saying Shall i hold him while you take place in the car and i saw he had black hair and when I looked up say that he had hair inside his nose and here I remember thinking grow hair through the nose.

Then I didn't knew it was called a nose. I was just amazed that hair grew through down to the nose.

I'm not normal-Having huge difficulty in remember what happened 5 sec ago.

Markus