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An Alternate History Idea
Is it possible to make modify the cities/countries in SH3 to fall into German hands or turn neutral? I was possibly thinking of producing some sort of alternate history modification where operation sea lion was given the go ahead and the Germans set up bases on the English coast. I have tried to locate the files for these things but I'm sort of a noob to making my own game mods. I think I'm on the verge to figuring out how to move a U-boat base to a new port, but more tinkering and testing is required.
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Something like this ?
I must say however that a more sensible and from a naval point of view more productive scenario would be Barbarossa being succesful. The resources saved and the raw materials gained would have been fed primarily to the air/naval fight, while the Wermacht was planning to turn against the Middle East or India. Presumably pro-axis neutrals like Spain, Portugal etch would have gone over to the germans as well making bases available. If Britain falls then so does much of the naval traffic which can be attacked. You will have to edit a lot more stuff as well. |
Don't forget the mod the high speed liner that carries the fleeing Royal Family to Canada. :03:
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Ireland would be a nice place for more sub bases. Then Marcello's worries about diminished sea traffic would be satisfied, too. Wouldn't make it easier for the British, though. |
Small thinkers- GO BIG!: In a fabulously successful combined operation Germany takes control of...ICELAND!... and the Azores! Tirpitz, Bismark, Prinz Eugen, Graf Spee and Scharnhorst are based out of these with half of the VII fleet and all the Luftwaffe air supremecy support of Doenitz's fantasy. Holland falls and the Dutch Antilles and oil reserves of Bonaire and Aruba become the replacement for Baku. Encouraged, those nasty little yerba-mate suckers in Buenos Aires under Col Peron, pro fascist dictator, provide another Western Hemisphere base to the Kreigsmarine- all the IX's- and Panama is Kaput. Not to be out-done in the back-stabbing department at this point, Spanish Gen. Francisco Franco suddenly gets brave and seals off the Gibraltar Straight; Vigo and the Baleares are open Nazi bases. The Bay of Biscay transit is a Nazi lake. Churchill cancels his 'end of the beginning' speech...:oops:
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Germany chances of winning the war were slim to none. By the end of 1941 with Barbarossa stalling and war breaking out with the USA it was game over. This despite that 1939-1941 played out pretty much as Germany best case scenario, with Poland being easily conquered, Norway being snatched from under the allies noses, France quickly defeated and huge soviet armies falling like dominoes in 1941.
However when all is said and done the USSR suffering a collapse in 1941 and 1942 is a lot more realistic than taking on the prèmiere naval power with Rhine barges in 1940. Besides of which even if it had been possible, from a game perspective it means nothing of good as there is virtually no traffic left to attack.The whole u-boat raison d'etre was chocking Britain and that is no longer an issue. Maybe the americans would send some stuff to the soviets once their turn comes but it would be a trickle compared to what is lost by losing Britain and you would have to redo basically the entire campaign. Whereas turning the remaining soviet cities to germany side, deleting the comparatively few convoys to the USSR and moving the Black Sea u-boat flotilla to Spain and similar changes are comparatively more modest undertakings. What happens next is up for conjecture, the Wermacht drew tentative plans for moves agains middle east oilfields or India. Presumably allied operations like Husky and Overlord won't happen as historical and moves against the european mainland would have to wait for a nuclear softening up of Germany in 1945. Probably the war would go longer but I am not sure in the game you can strech things further than 1945 without modifying everything. |
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Barbarossa didn't work, Sea Lion we don't know wouldn't work. I'd still go for a friendly (like Norway...:hmmm:..) lease of air, sub and S-boat bases in Northern Ireland September 1940. North-Western Approaches closed - England is down. Because of no invasion the US would stay protectionist, Roosevelt might even be dumped. England down and Stalin would stay a loyal supplier of all kind of goods to Germany. |
The Kriegsmarine had suffered greatly in Norway, with substantial losses (Blucher, Konisberg, Karlsruhe and half of the destroyer force) or damage (Gneisenau, Scharnhorst) of surface assets, to say nothing of what had already been lost elsewhere (Graf Spee, a number of u-boats). They cannot pull off an invasion of Ireland, nor resupply a force stationed there; the u-boat force in 1940 was also pitiful small, usually less than 20 boats at sea at any given time, to close anything no matter where its bases were. Not that in principle if you had to invade the UK a move against Ireland would be wrong but the means were simply not there.
Also even if somehow the germans are teleported in Britain/Ireland/whatever if you take out Britain you have to basically redo the campaign. Just open the RND campaign layer wih the editor and tell me if anybody feels like changing all the traffic going to and from Britain. It seems to me like a lot of work to...what end exactly since you are left without much in the way of enemies to fight? |
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The basic thesis for Barbarossa was that you could destroy the Red Army within 300-400 miles of the frontier and the way east would be open. The Germans thought they could, but their intelligence was faulty. It's greatest error lay in underestimating the Soviet ability to reconstitute shattered units and create new forces from scratch. The Red Army constantly fed in new divisions as fast as the Germans smashed existing ones and this was a principal cause of the German failure in 1941. The Germans could not afford to trade body for body with the Soviet Union. They never imagined that by the time of the German invasion, the Soviet Union had a pool of 14 million men (which Germany could not match) with at least basic military training. The Germans might have had greater success if they had rescinded the infamous Commissar Order, and the destruction of non-Jewish Slavs. The German occupation policy appeared deliberately intended to alienate the local populace. This was nothing more than a license to loot, pillage and plunder at will, and not have to worry about any consequences later. The German Army leaders should have known or suspected that this type of policy would open a Pandora's Box and make it impossible to get the Soviet Union's alienated populations on their side. |
As I said their chances of winning are slim to none. That said USSR tipping over in 1941-1942 seems a lot more feasible than most ohers alternatives. A different german approach and soviet leadership screwing things further (it is not like they had a great deal of check and balances against Stalin going nuts) were at least within the realm of the possible, though not likely. Naval resources in 1940 could not simply be had. Only possibility is perhaps the french somehow becoming immediately available for german use, though landing crafts are still not going to appear overnight. But as I said at the end of a day taking out Britain defeats the point of the game.
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The initial Nazi successes were achieved through shock and surprise against defenders that were largely ill-prepared. Two years into the war, the tide was changing and the forces of (and supporting) Russia and Britain had not wasted time in organising their preparations for their defence and the eventual defeat of the aggressors.
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These discussions are always interesting. I am a little surprised, though, that so many are so dead sure in their opinions. I ask you: |
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The key to the whole thing is world domination which means across the "English speaking pond" and into the Western Hemisphere! Since the Fascist regime under COL. Perón is available as of 1941(with Evita) this is the proper geographic base for the IX U-boots' longer range; (Bye Bye Falklands and St Helena) They can strike the African coast (Freetown-Capetown) more readily as well. Throw in the oil rich Dutch Antilles: (Bonaire, Curacao and Aruba) after the fall of Holland and Venezuela is cut off as well and the Panama Canal becomes a turkey shoot. The type VII's operate out of Iceland, Norway and the Azores and Ibeza in the Baleares, chopping off the Mediterranean "at the the gut", Gibraltar, under Fascist Franco. :yeah: |
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A scenario involving a street by street fight for either city also ignores the arrival of 18 divisions of troops from Siberia—fresh, well-trained, and equipped for winter fighting. They had been guarding against a possible Japanese invasion, but a Soviet spy reliably informed Stalin that Japan would turn southward, toward the Dutch East Indies and the Philippines, thereby freeing them to come to the Moscow front. Historically, the arrival of these troops took the Germans by surprise, and an unexpected Soviet counteroffensive in early December 1941 produced a major military crisis. If indeed they went directly at either of these cities, they may have garnered the strength to break in the gates, but in my opinion, the eventual urban fight for Leningrad or Moscow would have made Stalingrad look like a training exercise. |
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That said land and air forces could make up for a lot, but not the lack of a proper navy. Even with luck on their side Norway still crippled the Kriegsmarine surface forces and in the event the geography for the Luftwaffe was a lot more favorable than, say for an attempt on Ireland. Note also that France fell in the meantime and Britain had to be defended, if not the campagn might have lasted longer and naval losses could have been greater still. Quote:
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Also, while Napoleon did not get the details of naval warfare once you factor in the limitations he was operating under, that is insufficient resources to match the british ship for ship and a crippling shortage of trained manpower (being able to direct a ship of the line in a battleline is not something could be taught overnight) what he did was sound, if pretty textbook: build a fleet in being to stretch british resources. The alternative was investing more in commerce raiding. While the new french royal navy went in that direction planning wise after 1815 it is rather debatable it would have been all that more effective.
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Over London, no - over the Channel, yes. |
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