AI generated shipping question for RSRDC
 

I have searched for an answer but have not found one. Also posted this question in an existing thread with no response. So, thought I would try again here:

I have a question about adding randomly generated merchant ships and convoys back into RSRDC. It seems that contact reports is not enabled in the campaign and apparently there are no AI generated ships either.

I also would like to know if the frequency of these events can be modified? Default game makes targets too frequent I think, and RSRDC makes them too infrequent- I would like something in between if it is possible.

Is there a way of turning these options back on in the RSRDC without messing up all of the historic movements, especially the naval movements? I am not looking to edit the mis files if there is simply an option that could be turned on.

Sure, you can add all the groups you want to RSRD, but best to do so creating your own mission file. As descriibed already, if you want to make changes an existing group in RSRD, do so with notepad.

Most of RSRD groups spawn once, stock spawns groups numerous times, just uses percentages for different ships and spawn chances. It also uses a lot of generics, so simply the group will spawn differently each time, but it still follows the same path. With each group you can set a time limt each time it spawns. Simply, you basically have a percentage factors and time factors for each value

As for contact reports showing enemy location, you have values for that as well.

There is no option other than adjusting groups in the mis folders

Thanks for the info! I won't be touching the RSRDC mis files then at all.

There seems to be some debate that saving a file using the ME upsets the timing. I think Lurker stated it wouldn't be a good idea adjusting TF layers, because he has those historically timed to arrive. I have changed and saved with the ME testing using convoys and never noticed any changes. Course if you change speed, waypoints, you may throw off historical time, not sure it would matter to anyone with convoys.

I even replaced some of the convoy files in RSRD with those of TMO just to have more random traffic.

I've been working on the very thing you've questioned.....the merchant ship spawning percentages, and the time between having the game choosing when to "roll the dice" for spawning a particular merchant(s) ship route, or not. Both are very different than stock......with the chances much less likely to happen. It's my opinion, the spawning percentage rates, and time between spawning possibility, should be somewhere in-between what RSRDC uses and the stock game.

Lurker, has some merchant routes spawning only about 15% of the time the game asks for the dice roll (the time the game spawns the route ,or not).

The time between the spawn chance is sometimes many fold (sometimes 5 to 10x longer between spawning chances over stock).This has us finding merchant shipping being very scarce. What we do find becomes very predictable....because those few shipping route's become the only route's we find.

The same is true of RSRDC's Contact Report chances. The stock game set the "Report" chances at 50% for each spawn. RSRDC has most set well below 10%.....sometimes at 2 or 3% of a chance for giving a report. On those that are reported, Lurker made sure the area of the report is far from accurate. So, its just as well not to rely on the report at all. There's nothing wrong with that....but it is good to know.

What's got me looking at RSRDC's campaign files for the merchants, is the finding that any merchant ship travelling at below half its maximum rated speed, will not allow the manual sonar "hearing" of that ship when you go to the station yourself. Lurker made ships vary their speeds between waypoints (as they would in real life) with different speed settings for each leg between waypoints (the stock game keeps the speed constant at 9 knots). The problem is, if a ship rated at 18 knots maximum speed drops below 9 knots between two particular waypoints......you won't hear the ship with manual sonar use. Many of RSRDC's merchant speeds drop to seven and eight knots....some even go lower.

I like what Lurker as done with his campaign files for the Task Forces, but the merchants are another story.

And in fairness, part of the problem is game mechanics, illogically making targets silent below half speed. We're always up against the game mechanics, it seems. Try to make something realistic and the game mechanics twist what you did into something unrealistic.

Thus we unrealistic mods to get some degree of realism....:haha:

Yes, the issue is with the game mechanics.

It's reasonable to think a ship like a Nippon or T3 tanker, or a couple of the newer/larger merchant ships, would have a maximum speed rating of over 16 knots. I think the Nippon is rated at 18 knots.

Following the idea that you use the rated maximum speed for a ship as per real life....then you set reasonable travel speeds between points A/B, you would think your task of making a better modified game is complete. Yet, for some reason, the game doesn't recognize a merchant traveling below half its rated maximum speed when using the sonar. Least you won't hear it through the speakers, or headphones. If the ship's speed picks up to half its maximum rated speed.....you'll hear the engines turning as expected. Considering the game spent some time enabling sonar to provide at least a reasonable accurate bearing for a found target (unlike the mess it calls radar) yet, the manual use of the sonar is dependent on either unrealistic speed ratings or ship behavior, brings into question the games validity of being a "simulation".

It's a game....and not much more.

And that is the exact reason that we should be able to enjoy it. I love the way that RSRDC recreates historic shipping for the military targets. I am always thrilled when I am in an area that allows me to witness, or even take part in a historically accurate event, well- accurate except that my sub would not have actually been there to interfere. :)

What I don't like, is what I consider to be unrealistically scarce merchant shipping. From the personal accounts of those who were there, as I read the books- crews did become frustrated at the lack of shipping in some patrol areas. But other patrol areas where considered prime locations to find targets. In RSRDC- even the area around the tip of Southern Formosa, the Luzon Strait, or off the Japanese coast are devoid of any shipping.

The response to a lack of shipping in ones patrol area was to patrol closer to land for coastal transports, or to risk hanging around outside a major port to find shipping at it's origin or termination point. That does not seem to hold true in RSRD.

Japan i an Island nation that relied on shipping to provide raw materials- in wartime that requirement is increased. If the RSRDC shipping model were accurate- Japan could not have engaged in even a limited war for lack of resources. Targets should be much more abundant than is available as it stands with RSRD. While I appreciate the accuracy of KNOWN targets as found in the archives, the fact is that these targets represent just a small sample of what should be available.

I don't claim to be any kind of a modder. I am a tinkerer at best and some of my tinkering results in disaster. LOL - As it stands now, my best option to actually enjoy the game is to remove RSRDC completely, much as it frustrates me to do so. I guess I am just getting too old to learn new tricks. :/\\!!

Before you go leaving RSRDC for something better....which I don't think exists for now. You could try modding only the merchant files found in the Data/Campaigns/Campaign folder. The files are based on specific years during the war, with specific naming like "42a", or "42b". Look for the "Jap Merchants" file, or the "Tankers" file of the various years. Open them with Notepad. I wouldn't bother with the "Coastal Merchants" files, their mainly setting up the Sampans and fishing routes.

As I pointed out, look for increasing the spawning precentages of the various routes, and the decreasing of minimum time between spawning events (open the stock files to see what they have done with the same parameters.....you'll get an idea of what needs to be done to increase route activity). You could change the "Contact Report" parameters as you go too.

Just don't expect to get things done in a sitting or two. There are hundreds of specific possible routes to change, but once the merchant routes are increased, I think you'll find a distinct improvement in merchant activity.

As Armistead said, don't mess with RSRDC's capital ship Task Force files. Any changes there could easily mess up the excellent work Lurker worked on for following historic operations.

Pull out the Campaign/Merchant files of his "RSRDC Patch_1" mod to try making your changes. Don't mess with the dates he has in the Patch (that's what the Patch is for anyway!). With some work, I think you'll find a better game play.

I once had the same idea" not enough traffic in RSRD" as well until I learned how it works. The game is meant to be historical, sure lacks traffic in some areas, which i have added but there is more than enough traffic in RSRD at proper times.Luzon straits is pretty busy, must be missing traffic somehow.Yes, early war there are not many convoys(japanese didnt run many convoys then) but plenty of singles. Late war such as after april 45, traffic is slow, as it was.

My advice is to open up there layers, itll give you an idea of the shipping lanes.Not cheating as skippers were given intel on shipping lanes before patrol. Cheating would be running the sim through with the time filters to see movements but getting an overview of the shipping lanes in that time period.

Something it took me a while to figure out also, RSRD often seems to give you orders to a dry area but lurker knew his movements and there was a point.Example, I have been assigned to dry areas just off the main traffic lines and bored for 30 days of patrol, then boom, a task force rolls through and I end up bagging a carrier or heavy cruiser.Worth the wait? Absolutely. This is where the simulation aspect comes in.Lets face it, every boat did not always get a hot area on every patrol.Even in 1944, the busy year for US subs, not all had oustanding patrols, yes it was easier.The boredom is portrayed punctuated by moments of excitement. I thought this was not intentional but after it's happened a few times and I took a peak at the TF layers, compared them with the orders given at certain times, lurker did this on purpose.

Much like real life submarining, RSRD requires PATIENCE.

Yes, I can. Give me until this afternoon. I've got some things to do this morning. :up:

Exacty right, and exactly why modders are completely unable to please everybody. Every move has an intended consequence, and at least three unintended consequences. Two of them are bad.:D

But I agree with CapnScurvy on this one. RSRD is the best we have right now. Editing the merchant files and leaving the warship task forces alone could result in a mod with enough random behavior to feel much more real.

The problem of history is in what it does not record. No record does not mean it didn't exist. But our recreations, based on the very incomplete history we have, yield unrealistic results if we require documentation.

Documentation is sufficient to establish that something probably existed, but insufficient to show that something did not exist unless the documentation itself states that it did not exist. We waste a lot of time pretending that it is sufficient for both.

Honestly, I don't care for single merchants, don't even attack them, deleted most the files.

Here is what I can't quite figure, how groups respond when you're found out. More than not they simply slow down and do that damn silly helming, more rare, the ships will split in all directions, different speeds, while the escorts hunt, then regroup. This is great behavior. My PC with all my SH stuff blew, so can't do anything right now, but was testing some. I do seem to get different behavior if I set some merchants to elite, some poor, but not sure why. I thought ratings only effected the amount of sensor used, not quite sure if they effect other values or how connected to code.

The same with TF, how silly for them to slow down when they know you're there, but not always. Take RSRD's Kurita in the Bern, you attack it, it doesn't slow, keeps it high speed, think 22kts, so you really get one chance.

I also hate how if you damage a ship, the entire group often slows to match it's speed, but not always, many times they leave the ship behind.

Back to that helming, it hardly does nothing, I wish there was some way to increase the legs to a longer zig.

Hate Lurker left, RSRD is what it is, it needs a total update. The only way to do it properly is to touch 80% of the files, when you're done, you've overwritten RSRD so much, better to just add the few remaining files in your mod and not load RSRD. As far as I know, no one can get permission to rape and rework his mod.

I like my version of RSRD, edited all the crew ratings, added several ships, 100's of hard convoys, made most ports impossible to infiltrate, very strong subkiller groups, etc...

Without trying to circumvent Lurker's fine work (I thought he's had a long standing request of not using his mods incorporated into other mods) yet, I've not really found much on his "Permission" request. In mods past, I've had to change some of his files to either make them more accurate, or correct a problem with them when making some of my mods "compatible" with his (and he knew I did). He's also taken the liberty to do the same with mine (I still find some of my SCAF Recognition Manual images in his RSRDC work). So, explaining how a player could increase merchant traffic in RSRDC is purely instructional in nature, and not intended to disrespect his request of permission. Frankly, I've looked all through his RSRDC file documentation and have found only this:

Absolutely nothing found within the RSRDC may be used for any commercial product of any size, shape or form.

Below is a comparison of the two Random Group entries of the "42a_Jap_Merchants.mis" file:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...psac1177e9.jpg

You'll notice there is no difference in the two 1st [Mission] paragraphs, except for the Year and Month entries. The RSRDC file is from the "RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1" mod (which is intended to overwrite any RSRDC version). The Patch is intended to correct the dates for the game allowing for some overlap in mission availability......DON"T MESS WITH THE DATES IN RSRDC. Nor, should you open the file in the games Mission Editor to make corrections to RSRDC's work. It apparently will change the dates Lurker so diligently worked on.....making them as the stock game has them. This is why Lurker warns about not making changes using the ME.....use Notepad to open, and save your changes to his files.

The second paragraph is the one I'll explain....the [RndGroup 1]

Be assured, these two files are referring to two completly different merchant routes. So, please realize this is like comparing apples to oranges. The fact is, RSRDC doesn't have a single merchant route that's comparable to the stock game....their all different in where they start, when they start, what ships are used, what speeds they travel etc. What's important to see is the general differences between them and what some of the specific entries mean.


GroupName=xx_xx_xxx
The name of the mission

Category=0
????

CommandEntry=0
Not sure what either of these two parameters do.

Long=xxxxx.xxxx
Lat=xxxxx.xxxx
Where the mission starts on the map

Height=0.000000
Unit's will start on the surface when at 0.000000

DelayMin=60
Minimum time taken between last check of spawning attempt, in seconds. This entry is usually kept at 60 seconds.

DelayMinInterv=xxxxxx
This is the maximum interval of time between the last check of a spawning attempt (in seconds), until the next chance is made. Notice RSRDC has this number doubled over the stock entry. For some of RSRDC's routes, this factor is many times the average stock period of time.

SpawnProbability=xx
The precentage of time's you'll actually get a spawn of the mission route when an attempt is allowed, after the "DelayMinInterv" period of time has passed. On average, RSRDC has this precentage set to below 50%.....Stock has it mostly over 50%. As in the two examples, RSRDC has 40% of the time you'll get a spawn....Stock has it at 70%.

RandStart Radius=0.000000
How far away from the Long=, Lat= map position the mission will randomly spawn, within a given radius.

ReportPosMin=xxxx
This is the minimum amount of time, in seconds, it takes to make a "Contact Report" on the mission route, after it's sucessfully been spawned.

ReportPosProbability=xx
The precentage chance of having a "Contact Report" made once a spawn is sucessful. RSRDC has this setting usually lower than 10%. Stock always has this set to 50% of the time.

The rest of the entries are somewhat self explainatory.

The 3rd paragraph [RndGroup 1.RndUnit1] is explained from a passage I copied from Peabody:

[RndGroup 1.RndUnit 1]
this is the first ship in the group

Type=102
Obviously the type of ship (102=Cargo). Found in the Roster/Names.cfg file.

Origin=Japan
Country from the Roster

Side=0
Side is taken from the DefSide.cfg in the Roster

CargoExt=1
External cargo from a list in the mission editor.
List:
0=Ext Oil
1=Fuel
2=Oil
3=Ammo Containers
4=Ammo Crates
5=Aircraft
6=Tanks
7=Trucks
8=TrapContainer
9=American Tanks
10=American Trucks
11=Ext fuel
12=Ammo
13=Engine Oil
14=Engine Fuel

CargoInt=0
Internal Cargo from a list:
List:
0=Freight
1=Ammunition
2=Engine Fuel

CfgDate=19420301
Date the ship is available

No=1
How many of this unit are added to the convoy/task force. You can add one at a time and this will be one, or in mission editor you can add 5 all at once and in the mission editor you will see an entry "American: 5XGeneric cargo 100%. So if you edit that by hand you can change 1 to 5 and it will add 5 of that type of ship to the mission. (I have not tested this with Notepad, but it does work with the mission editor). It the person that wrote the mission added the ships to a random group one at a time it will always be 1. That is the way I do it, so you can put in different settings for each ship.

Escort=false
If you add or change DDs, you should change this to True so the DDs will not travel in the columns but will actually act like Escorts and travel randomly out side the group. Normally for cargo ships this will always be false. Usually the only time you change it is for an escort ship such as a Destroyer.

SpawnProbability=100
The chance that this specific ship will actually be added to the group. You need to be a little careful here, if you add all ships at 70% but the Escort destroyers are set to 100% you may have all DDs and NO ships in the convoy. Or you may end up with seven DDs escorting 1 ship. By setting some ships at 100% and Generic, and others at 70% you can vary the convoy so it isn't the same every time you see it. I always make sure I have at least a few set to 100% so it isn't an empty convoy. (Don't confuse this with the SpawnProbability in the RndGroup1 entry. That one sets the probably that the entire group will spawn. The entry here determines if this ship is in that group or not.)

CrewRating=1
Just like the cargo it is a list of choices from the mission editor.
List:
0=Poor
1=Novice
2=Competent
3=Veteran
4=Elite

A good choice to make them Novice at the start of the war and increase to Elite as they get better at their task, and zig zagging and evading you.

========

It goes without saying, there are a lot of individual mission routes. If you just concentrate on the various year Merchant and Tankers .mis files....you'll be at it for quite a while. As I said, I'm working on a comprehensive change to the RSRDC merchant files now, with the plan on relaesing a new mod to overlay RSRDC v550.

Capn,

Always wondered exactly what all crew ratings effect. Long ago I was told they only effect the amount of sensors used. Anyway, l noticed long ago almost all the merchant and capital ships used the competent rating, so I beefed them up, many vets and elite. It seemed clear they reacted different at elite, zigged better, evasion, repaired faster, etc. Can you say for fact what all ratings effect beside sensors....seems they effect about everything overall.

You know best about what you can do with his mod. I once asked about releasing changes to RSRD and several stepped up for him saying I shouldn't release anything that changed his existing work or included it, so I dropped it, except for myself. However, I don't see a problem making mods that simply add to his work, new mis files, etc.

Wow Cap'n THANK YOU so much for taking the time to explain how to tweak the mis files. I will take what you have shown here and give it a try. Your step by step explanation makes the mystery that seemed daunting and males it into a task that seems much more realistic for a novice like myself to attempt.

My very sincere thanks!

:yeah:

The way I see it, when you load up a mod it changes previously loaded mods. RSRD does overwrite TMO gameplay options, for instance. It is only reasonable that therefore it is okay to write mods that overwrite RSRD parameters too.

It is not okay to release them as "RSRD Reworked!" or in any way to imply that you've somehow taken over RSRD. It IS okay to release "Restore Duci's Evil Airplanes to RSRD" mod. It can be loaded on top of RSRD if you want that change, but it does not change RSRD itself. If you unload "Restore Duci's Evil Airplanes" you restore RSRD to Lurker's intention, just as if you uninstall RSRD you restore Duci's original intentions for TMO. I thought evil airplanes were Duci's crowning achievement. Lurker hated them so he tromped all over them.

The agreement was that Duci would work on gameplay and Lurker would do campaign. But that is not what happened and RSRD morphed into a supermod knowing no boundaries, not supplementing TMO but redefining its gameplay as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Just do it with respect for the original mod makers and in a way that leaves their products unmodified if people are perfectly happy with them unmodified.

We're providing additional choices, not eliminating old ones.

Yes I think "choices" are good for everybody. I'll admit, when I started looking through a couple of RSRDC's early war merchant/tankers campaign files I found a couple of errors in the Group numbering, and waypoint numbering sequence. It was a couple of days ago (and I tried to find it quickly today....but couldn't), but as I was scrolling down through one of the Merchant files, I found the RandomGroup number to be different than what the [Mission] number was. Meaning the RndGroup information wasn't going to be attached to the [Mission] it should have been. I also found the first "Waypoint" entry of another Group was numbered #2, not #1.....there were two #2 Waypoints listed. I'm not sure about the outcome, but when a Group's Waypoint doesn't start with the first waypoint......I'm thinking the group won't go anywhere, because it doesn't know where to start.

Having the SpawnProbability set to 15% or so.....or having the DelayMinInterv set so long in duration that the game won't look for mission spawning possibilities within a "blue moon", seems too unplayable to me. I said before, if some missions are rarely spawned, yet others are much more likely to be allowed to run their course......a predicitable pattern will emerge. You'll become too familiar with the few routes that are made available, while feeling you're the only ship in the sea while waiting on the others to spawn (if they ever will).

Correcting errors, tweaking percentages, and lowering elapsed time intervals should make for better game play for us all. More mission routes being run will create more variety. I'm guessing that's exactly what Lurker would have wanted too.