US warns of Snowden consequences
 

I hope the obvious frustration felt does not result in the US painting themselves into a corner.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23031801

It would be disappointing if they don't help him

I've an open mind atm but it would be interesting to see some viewpoints on the matter.

Exposing the treachery and ineptitude of a puppet government and its' agencies should not carry a penalty of any kind. The Fed has been painting bollocks with a broad brush for far too long. The days of their fear and war mongering for profit are numbered, whether the shadow government likes it or not.:stare:

The NSA should post ads for turn coat spys on all of the defense department networks and then let the password slip for that page only.

Show a nice house in Monatana (isn't that where the sailor on Red October wanted to go?) with a swimning pool surrounded
by binki clad women with the title, "this could be all yours"

"Will trade for insider information"

"Please call if you need help getting to America"

Obviously in an advanced democracy, the people cannot be trusted anymore.
(b.t.w. the GCHQ is even worse than the NSA, just saying. The surveillance and eavesdropping in England must be on the top of the world - i only remember those ten thousands of surveillance cameras in London alone - funnily enough lots of those around George Orwell's home)

I think they do not so much betray 'secrets' to foreign countries, but have the intention to make clear what governments do, to their own citizens.
They did not do it for money or fame, instead they knew they would be hunted and criminalized, before they would be probably killed.
(You know you have to destroy a man publicly and politically, before you can kill him)

In my opinion they all deserve a nobel prize, and much much more than Obama.



But the main question is what do the people do now, after they have seen their own democratic (lmao) governments violate public and international law ?

My guess is: Nothing. Disgust is present, but indignation about those ploys is sooo old school. Better publish my personal last night's adventure in FaceBook, via iPhone. And buy a new car. :yep:

Consequences?!

What consequences, the US can't do a thing, the limits of their power and the power of the Western nations has been white-lined by Assange, and is now fairly common knowledge. Russia and China (and therefore by logical extension Hong Kong) have no love lost for the US, nor does Ecuador, Cuba and Venezuela. Ecuador will (eventually) take him in, and they will parade him in public positions, he will eventually release the rest of his information, thus keeping himself in the limelight and thus unkillable without immediate suspicion falling on the US, and then he will fade away, of little more use or consequence to either the US or its enemies. Eventually when he is in his sixties he may come back to the US out of nostalgia and will be arrested and stand trial, and then he will end his days in prison.

Hes done a Lord Lucan, that is to say if the news is right.

I read this and I hope that you jest my friend.Any unfair deed that our government does pails in comparison to the oppressive states that exist in both China and the CIS(Russia).

If you had posted what you posted above in either China or Russia you would not be sitting comfortably in your home right now.You would be in jail and after conviction (100% certain to occur) you would be serving anywhere from a year to 10 years in prison.

The US federal government may not always be picture perfect but it is mild in comparison to the alternatives.

Snowden is nothing but a blowhard and he does not know very much I can assure you of that.I know people that where contractors for the CIA and NSA they only have very limited information only about the specific project they work on and they never know every detail only enough to do what ever they do.My uncle worked for the NSA while he was in the USAF back in the 70's and the same story he only knew enough to perform his duty which in his case was recording certain Soviet communication networks.

All I can say is if you knew a person who worked for the CIA or NSA you would not be so interested in Snowden.

Well said ... it's a battle for what we think. Most of us on the outside looking in can't possibly understand what is going on.

If the tide should turn like in so many news stories lately with the real truth coming out later than sooner then many will be caught with egg on their face.

No love has been lost with this trump card Russia now pocesses.

I agree that no penalty should apply to Snowden at this point for what he has released. However, I am concerned with what other intel he possesses and who he shares it with. The American public "doesn't know what it doesn't know". For the US government to want him as bad as they are portraying, one has to believe Snowden has some more "dirty laundry" that they don't want to divulge.

I'm all for exposing the US government for breaking the laws and ignoring the constitution. Not that anyone will ever be held accountable, for that' doesn't happen in the "transparent" Obama administration. As I stated, it's the intel we don't know about that causes me to pause.

Prism, Tempora - not surprising at all. The Americans have used stations in England since the 70s or early 80s already to overhear over 90% of all telephone and radio communiction in all of Europe, and beyond. With today's technological capacities, the surveillance of any electonic communication is total, I'm sure, and much automated.

Surprising only is how little people care. They already are pretty much in nausea, it seems.

Of course I do not trust terrorists. It's just that I see zero reason to trust governments either, and week for week I read new evidence and news from all Western world how much my mistrust is justified.

The fallout of a total surveillance society with crystal clear transparency of the state's self-declared property units - citizens, that are -, will become evident in the future. Maybe then will people care, if meanwhile for some reason they woke up. It's just that then it will be too late, and the monster will be at the maximum of its power and control.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-907495.html

A people not caring for its freedom, does not deserve freedom.

Nor respect or sympathy.

We all are ruled to become just enslaved numbers. Submit! Obey! Shut up! Praise the system! Die for its lies! Fight for its defence! Believe in its illusions!

A new cult is born. Hallelujah!

From the article ^:

"The next weeks and months will show whether democratic societies across the world are strong enough to take a stand against the unlimited, totalitarian ambitions of Western secret services -- or not.

The governments of the countries in question apparently did not have the necessary backbone. They knew full well that the kind of surveillance being undertaken lacked all democratic legitimacy. But they pursued the programs anyway, behind the backs of their electorates."


Nothing to add.

Any society that surrenders even one freedom for security deserves neither and will lose both.
I could understand going after the guy with both barrels if he had actually divulged strategic "military" information to a sovereign foreign enemy we are at war with. We are not at war with any sovereign state. We are at war against a religious ideology and stirring the war pot for the next incursion.

If we know nothing of the big picture in DC, then it is by design that we are kept ignorant of their actions. Especially when those actions trample on our rights and our constitution. Sure, they claim that there is plenty of oversight with the programs in question but, we all know that politicians are psychopathic liars and they are following the instructions of a relative few elite individuals that preside over the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission and numerous corporate cabals who are seeking unfettered hegemonic control of the planetary resources. Strictly for their own monetary gain. They have nearly solidified their power and they answer to no one.:shifty:.

That's nice. Does that somehow excuse our government from any wrongdoing? Do you say our own people spying on us is alright because "they're worse"?

Did Snowden reveal secrets that could get our own people killed? If so, then he deserves prosecution. Or is he the one who exposed all the rescent wiretapping activities? If his "crime" was to reveal illegal activities perpetrated by our own govermnent, then who is the real criminal?

The world is a very dirty nasty place. Many Citizens can live their lives happy; partly because they don't know what is really happening concerning foreign policy.

I wish the world was nice and clean with the good guys wearing white hats and the bad guys wearing black hats. Everyone wears grey hats. Some a little lighter, some a little darker, but all grey. One person's good guy is another person's bad guy. Most people are both good and bad at the same time, depending on viewpoint.

I would like to point out that NSA is not some nameless/faceless government entity. It is staffed with almost a million American citizens. Each of which have the same values, ethics, and concerns as many other citizens.

Almost a million people who every day they are at work are asking themselves, "Are we operating within the law".

Almost a million people who every year raise concerns through appropriate channels where issues are investigated and changes are made.

Almost a million people tasked with a very difficult job, in a difficult environment, doing their duty to the best of their ability, every day.

Almost a million people who are Americans and are just as concerned with civil rights as we are.. after all, they are citizens too.

I know that it is trendy to have the attitude that the "government" is corrupt. Everyone's doing it. I guess all the cool kids can feel superior with their "knowledge" about what happens in the government.

But the government is made up of US citizens... just like us. There are good ones, and bad ones... just like us. And imperfect ones... just like us.

Same values, same concerns, same desires... We are, after all, a government made up of the people. And some of these people have a very difficult job they do and they do it with professionalism.... every day.

And then there are those who are not professional.... just like us.

Saying something is "trendy" is a good way to dismiss it. Is the government corrupt? If so, should we do nothing about it?

This isn't about the government being corrupt. It's about a part of the government conducting an activity that may be illegal. Did it? I admit that I don't know. That said, should we not investigate it because the belief that it is is "trendy"? More to the point, this particular thread isn't even about the government directly, it's about the man who exposed that activity. Is he a criminal? Is he a hero?

What would have happened, if a member of the Chinese secret service had unfold unbelievable international cyber surveillance details of the Chinese government and would now try to hide from China police?
I guess he would already sit in a CIA jet heading to the United Stasi of America, to meet senators and members of the congress, shaking hands for Faux News, calling him a hero of the free world, who fights for democracy and freedom etc.
And of course the land of the free would deny any help to bring him back to China, were he would have to face repression, unfair treatment, solitary confinement and other forms of torture. Well, in the sight of Guantanamo and Mr. Manning I think Hong Kong, China and the Russians have a similar statement to deliver.

If only it were that simple, Platapus.

But what is being established, is like the government having a policeman living in your apartment, overhearing what you talk with your family and people on the phoned and at work, to protect other families from you trying to rob them or breaking into their houses.

What is being established is that foreigners in the all the world all get treated like criminals, needed to be assumed as guilty as long as their innocence is not proven. This is especially true for people travelling into the US. Business traffic has dropped into the Us, because many business people simply are pissed.

What is being established is a mentality training, to educate people to live naked and totally exposed to the government, without having any control or insight into government's intentions and activities. The government no longer fears the people: the people fear the government. The government is no longer liable and must account to the people, but the people are being held accountable by the government.

What is being established is a total digitalization of private sphere and private life, and the ability to just push a button to learn all and everything about people, no matter whether it is security relevant or not. Your whole existence potentially can be destroyed by somebody just accessing a database and using what he finds there about you. Your job. Yiur health insurance. The potential for abuse and blackmailing are endless. Its an abyss opening up there.

And lets face it, when it is in monopolistic businesses' profit interest or politicians' interest or finance offices or insurance'S interest to exploit data about you for their own advantage and intention, then they will do it. Because these are the people who write the laws, regulate how the laws are used and enforced, and additionally erode democracy from within.

I see the danger of terrorism. But that is an obvious evil, clear to identify when you see it, easy to point fingers on it and say "this is evil". But I fear far more the criminal organisations, the organised crimes that governments and their alliances with business lobbies - as well as especially in Europe left-leaning ideological crusaders - have turned into. Because if you point fingers at this and explain the evil in it, then it is much harder to seer for many people, and it will be the public opinion itself turning against you and declare you a phobic - an irrational, mentally ill person that is. Terrorism can be adapted to, can be fought against, can be identified. Political abuse and crime, and totalitarian control of everybody, the silent strangling of freedom - that is like a sling around your neck, and the more you fight against it, the more you get strangled.

Be an obedient dog then. Learn their rules, do not question them, sit still and dance stand on your back legs and wag your tail when they give you a hint. Those who be like that and accept their laws, have nothing to fear.

Only those not accepting the line around their neck and not accepting their rules imposed on them must worry about the law. Haven't we heard this argument not several times in this forum over the past couple for years, at various opportunities. I always get a shiver when I hear some mindless person saying that so carelessly. The speaker have forgotten what unbelievable cruelties and barbaric tyrannies have been made possible under the protection of this parole.

People have live din peace for too long, and in too much luxury and wealth. They take their freedom - or what they call that - for granted, and do not imagine circumstances where they need to defend it, or that it could be taken away from them. And in Europe, things are not getting better by the fact that it ids a social-psychological fact that people, the vast majority, do not crave so much for justice in it's real meaning, but that all and everybody must be made equal. If that equality is the equality of castrated slaves and can only be had at the cost of destroying those who perform and did better than the low and miserable average standard, then this is okay for most people there are as long as the guy living next door is not better off than themselves.

There is neither a reason nor an excuse to trust Western governments. And there are so very much very obvious reasons and arguments and facts recommending exactly the opposite: to not trust governments one bit.

If you think you must choose between two evils, you necessarily always will choose evil. And I put into question whether what many people now would argue to be the "lesser evil", indeed is a lesser evil at all over a longer period of time. I say: it is not.

And that is the cogent question.

It might be a good for the legality of the actions to be determined before people get spun up.

There are people posting on the Internets Tubes who seem to take it as demonstrated that the government violated laws. Let's answer that question first before we start declaring someone a hero or a baddie. :yep: