Ok this is strange.
 

I see police sit and loiter for hours in one spot, yet when I do that they say "move along, no loitering"

I have always looked up to police officers as authority figures, but shouldn't authority figures lead by example?

Tonight me and some friends were in a parking lot (several cars) just chatting, an officer told us to "move along". So we went to another lot....same thing. We were in our vehicles, no loud music, no drinking or drug use. Just chatting.

Is there a law in the USA that states when you are not at work you must be home?

And if there are worries about businesses being broken into, well..we kind of deter that. Who would break into a business when there are so many witnesses about?

As a former police officer, I can attest to the fact that many businesses have what is called a "trespass agreement" with their local department, which is basically a standing agreement that the police will keep people off of the property (parking lots included) after hours.

Well we never hung around places that have a "No loitering, Police take Notice" sign, nor would we go on property with a posted "No trespassing" sign, or hunt where it says "No Hunting" That would simply be just disrespectful.

The fact is we were in a public place, with no posted time limit, no posted warnings, and we were doing nothing that could cause a problem with anyone else.

If it's not posted, then there shouldn't be a problem.

Is the parking lot "public space" or is it private property?

While the area might be open to the public, it's still private property (private property=not owned by the government). If the owner of the property does not want anyone around after hours, that is within their rights, and a trespass agreement empowers the police to enforce those wishes without any posted signs or individual requests for service.

Now, if there was no such agreement in place for that property, and no signs posted, then the cop was overstepping his bounds, as there would not be any legal reason to run you off from an area commonly open to the public.

So, in short, without knowing what agreements the property owner has with the department, it's hard to tell if the officer was being a jerk or not.

It was a private owned theater parking lot, no signs posted and I know from a fact that several people in the past have drank on the property....and they were arrested for drinking and driving only after they left the parking lot and were on a public roadway.

The police couldn't arrest them on that property even though they were drinking and behind the wheel of a vehicle....because it is a private owned parking lot.

Thank you, you have enlightened me to something I already knew, I foresee several complaint letters from many people to our local police department.

So it seems the property owners have an established problem of people abusing their property, which means they probably have the agreement in place which Rambler mentions.
That would suggest that your letters of complaint will have no bearing.

Loitering is defined as remaining in any one place without no apparent reason.
Loitering is an activity in which someone remains stationary in a public area for an extended period of time without a specific purpose.
When loitering is linked with activities like obstructing passage along a road or sidewalk or attempting to control an area, it can be a cause for law enforcement intervention. Control of territory through loitering is of special concern in areas where gang activity is an issue, and gang members may loiter at key points in order to send a message to other gangs. It can also be viewed as criminal activity when it is accompanied with begging, solicitation, sales, public drunkenness, intimidation, or being a public nuisance.
Certainly not suggesting you are doing any of these.
This is pertinent because the Police will want to know why you are in a car park at night, catching up with your friends, rather than at the local bar or at your or their place.
Police have a right to question your intent, and to move you along, if no grounds for you to be present are apparent.
Are there any shops nearby? Businesses?
If there is, have they had recent break-ins? Is it a bad area? Bad part of town? Gang activity?
All these things make the Police even more aware of people lingering in public places like car parks etc. And to move along.
You say you are a good moral person and not doing anything wrong by chatting in a car park with some mates. But how are the Police meant to know that that is your only intent?
You can be charged with loitering if you are in a place and at a time where normal, law-abiding citizens are not commonly found and which could be construed as posing a threat to property or to others.
A council, if it's a public car park has laws in place to deter loitering in public car parks and you can be asked to move along and can be fined.
Private car parks will have even more stringent laws to deter loitering and as a result can have more serious consequences.
Your best bet is to check with your local law enforcement office on the laws of loitering in your area or neighborhood.

Yeah, right. Better lock crazy-Donna away in advance, just to make sure, since you'll never know what those crazy chatting kids are up to nowadays...

As long as there is no sign of a crime going to happen, the police should stay quiet and friendly, wish her and her friends a nice evening and be gone.

You're putting words in my mouth. I wasn't insinuating that she's not a good decent moral person.

If you read some of my points that i raised about public, or in this case private properties being used as a meeting place for catching up and dwelling on said premises, that are extended to such a point that it becomes the possibility of falling under the loitering law then you would perhaps have an incling as to why the Police would move persons on.

Chicago v. Morales, No. 97-1121 (1999) made loitering laws unconstitutional although many people still use the term loitering. The decision was based on the interpretation of "loitering" is too vague and is a violation of the First Amendment (the right of the people peaceably to assemble).

On privately owned property, it is actually trespassing, which is a different offense and is enforceable. An owner of private property can always tell you to git and you gotta git.

On publicly owned land, a person can not be charged with just "loitering" if they are not breaking any other ordinances, creating a disturbance, or interfering with others. Lots (lot's, for Steve) of loopholes. Some states have ordinances pertaining to ex-cons assembling but they are separate ordinances. The bottom line is that there may be ways the police can force you to leave, but they based on other ordinances then loitering.

Now this is a nice safe academic opinion. Would I try to "educate" a cop that is telling me to git? Probably not. PoP (Pissed off Police) can always find something to charge you with, even if they have to make it up. Then it becomes a "Cop says" v "Subjugated Citizen says" case and I think we can imagine how judges rule on those. :/\\!!

If a PoP tells you to git, it might be better off in the long run to quietly git. :yep:

The loitering law, as it stands, was also called a convenience law. In other words, it gave the local law enforcement a reason to be able to move anyone they didn't like or find suitable in their eyes to move on, or worse, to arrest.
This was especially prevalent in the 1800's in the south and became a racial issue as well. Luckily we don't live in those times anymore.

I think the no loitering is implied in most cases. Sometimes posted in a obscure spot. Faded sign. I take my 54 Buick to a hosted local cruise in at the mall every Saturday night. The mall allows use of a portion of the lot for the cruise in. Last week the cruise in was cancelled due to impending rain. Me and a few others did not get the memo. Mall security told us to move on as a result of the cancellation. Loitering can be and is a problem. Usually young kids. The law applies to everyone though.

Like Rambler has already stated, businesses are not public property. In NJ, there are no "Loitering" laws. However, if a business owner contacts police and says that he/she wants certain persons (or any one person) off their property, the police are bound to protect and serve. The business owner does not even need a reason to have someone leave his property since the police will note the business owner's request in their Operation/Incident report. It would be up to the business owner to show any cause in court if it comes down to that.

On the other hand, in NJ, Trespassing Laws are bound to any one of three basic requirements. A fence, a No Trspassing sign or word of mouth. If a police officer is called by an "established business owner" who wants anyone kept from lingering on his property and he then tells a person to "move along" or "leave", he has now enabled one of the requirements of the Trespassing laws (by word of mouth). If you disobey him, you subject yourself to arrest. The only thing the officer needs to show in court is that he was called to the private property to remove any individuals and that his verbal order to leave, disperse, etc. was disobeyed. If the issue even arises as to the cause for the police presence there, that would fall upon the business owner who is already noted in the officer's report.

Schools, banks, factories, churches and businesses in NJ (and I'm sure in most states) are considered private or "quasi-public" property. Public schools fall under the jurisdiction/ownership of the local or county school districts or towns wherein they reside.

More often than not, the police can and will (if they have to) prove that they had Just Cause (or Probable Cause) for being there.

In some instances, I have advised business owners that I cannot ask a person to leave based on the information he/she gave me at the time.

Well I have a better plan. I am my brother in laws only employee at his used car lot. So we can park there, he has no problem with it and I even have a key to the building for bathroom use. If the police come by I will explain that I am allowed to be there by the business owner and they actually are not, without probable cause. :D

Edit: Me and my friends are on good terms with the local police, and I have had many private conversations with the Chief. Police need to buy cars too once in awhile.

Oh, and I once gave the Chiefs daughter a black eye while playing lacrosse in high school...we were on the same team even. Purely unintentional. (Or was it?....the little snot.)

:haha: Well, maybe she did deserve it. My first police chief had a very troublesome, disrespectful, son who thought he could do no wrong. He eventually learned about life the hard way. Still, overall, he turned out OK and now works as a high school teacher. Many years ago, he got into too much trouble as a cop and was forced to resign.

And that plan will work until the neighbours complain or some people park up which you or your brother in law don't want there, or you have people drinking in their cars...at which point your brother in law will do the same as the theatre owners did and get the police to move people on.

I'm sure different cities have different rules. Where I live, if it's private property, but assessable to the general public, then they need a no trespassing sign after certain hours. Legally, about anyone can walk on private property that isn't posted or fenced.

Main thing is to know your rights and which laws are in place. I do a lot of metal detecting on private and public land, always getting permission. I often open carry when I detect. I can't count the time cops walk up on me. I've even had cops try to run me off private land downtown that I have permission to hunt. It's usually the same thing...

What are you doing?
Can I see your ID.

I'm polite, but when they ask for ID, I'll simply ask what crime they suspect me of. Always, they say no crime, just got a call. I ask if I'm being detained, which generally makes them mad. Sometimes it takes minutes, sometimes an hour or more. Course, I where a helmet cam and once they know they're on video, they sing a different tune, become nice, etc.

However, I've run into a few that were irate. Once detecting, I heard female yell behind me "show me your hands" and "drop the knife"
which wasn't a knife, but a narrow digging tool. She had her gun pulled, etc. I told her I was armed, open carry, which she saw. I tried to state my rights, but she yelled, never listened, made me get on ground, cuffed me, took my gun, digging tool, etc. She told me "my safety comes before your civil rights." I finally got her supervisor on site, nicer and knew the law. She kept complaining about my gun, but he said she was concerned with me walking around carrying a big knife. Course, he didn't have much of an explanation when I asked him do they cuff everyone carrying a 3 inch garden shovel used for planting flowers. It was obvious I was detecting on a private lot. Anyway, he gave me all my stuff back and said goodbye. Most male cops that stop on me are nice, polite, but the female cops, geesh, they go into combat mode.

That must have been quite a traumatic experience with the female cop because you have mentioned it several times now including a thread where you explained what happened in detail.

Does the experiance that you had with one female officer automatically make every female officer over reactive though? I beg to differ I think it has much more to do with the individual rather than the sex.I have had an experience where the male cop was the jerk and the female cop was nice and not in support of her overly cocky partner.

In this instance the issue at hand was an open container.I was on leave in Gainesville,FL getting ready to attend a Florida Gators game.A buddy and myself decided to step outside this crowded bar for a few minutes and we where standing right in front of the bar.

Two Gainesville PD walk up and the male cop walks up to me and informs me that "we" have a problem.I had been used to German law where the cops do not give a damn if you have a beer in your hand in public so long as you are not being overly disruptive or trying to drive a vehicle so I was a bit confused having forgotten American Puratin laws.

So I asked him what was "our" problem? he then informed me that it is illegal to have an open container of alcohol in public.So I just stood waiting for him to do what ever he was planning to do.Finally he gives me three options number one was go to jail number two was dump out the beer number three was go back inside the bar.My reply was;

"Well sir I did not plan on going to jail today and if I dump out my beer with you standing so close to me it will splash on you and you would call that assault so I will take the best option and go back inside if that is .o.k with you." I'm sure he was hoping that I was drunk and planned on resisting. Of course he was not pleased with my answer but he had no legal recourse so he walked away.After my reply his female partner could not control herself and she started laughing at the other cop.I think that the male cop in my experience and the female cop in your experience might make a good couple.

Over the course of my law enforcement career, I have seen both male and female officers (on occasion) overreact, or just the opposite, not react at all when they should've done something. What most people fail to realize, during such situations, is that cops are human. No matter how hard they try to create the perfect cop, it will never happen.

Cops can have a bad day, just like anyone else in their particular profession, though I doubt anyone would be that interested in a "Bad Plumbers" or "Nasty Mechanics" thread. The only difference is the nature of police work. Peoples' lives are affected and/or at stake. In NJ, Cops have a lot of power, and that being one of the strictest states in the union for protecting the Constitutional Rights of the individual. During my rookie year, I really thought I was "The Man", weilding that much power and authority. However, it was not long at all before that wore off and I came to realize just how much of a burden it really is to have that much authority.

A seasoned veteran realizes, during the course of his duties that, it's not personal, it's a job and our sworn duty to investigate all calls. A police officer never knows who he is dealing with during any investigation. On the other hand, we wear a uniform and the public knows who they are dealing with.

@ Armistead:
Does your state have a criminal code, or a set of criminal laws? The reason I ask is because (though I cannot speak for every state), most states have enacted a set of criminal laws or codes that supersede local county or city ordinances. The only exception would be if the state empowers local jurisdictions with respect to specific areas of law, e.g., "trespassing".
I have always been happy to speak with people who approached me in public while I was on duty and answer their questions, which occurred quite often. On many occasions, they would ask me specific questions about the laws. Many times I found they had a misunderstanding or misinterpretation between what was law and how their individual rights were affected by them during certain situations.