Tax, tax, tax... thats the plan
 

We need massive funds for development of solar and algae based biofuels. No I am not naive enough to think it will do more than put a dent in coal use but solar is most effective in summer in the blazing sun meaning it gives our EXPENSIVE and aging power grid system a bit of a reprieve in danger areas.

The energy crisis in California at the turn threatened to destabilize the economy. We cant afford not to have massive funds for development

We don't need massive government funds, if it's cost effective, it's cost effective. Sort of like recycled materials—they are only useful when they are competitive with "virgin" stuff.

What we need are more nuclear plants.

You like to ask for massive taxpayer subsidy. Just curious, how many hundred grand a year do you pay in income taxes?

Thank god those nuclear plants don't cost the governement a dime

Good! its about time we made some money so we don't have to keep paying the middle east for fuel, or giving money to BP just for them to cause huge disasters.

And what happens when we start to run out of Viable oil wells? we need a backup unless we want to go back to the stone age.

Funny how the republican party....the same party how started one of the most expensive wars in history are suddenly worried about fiscal responsibility! I guess when it fits your agenda you are all for it!

I really hate getting on your case every time we talk about this, ZS. But think about it, man. If those were such good alternatives, don't you think somebody would have capitalized on them by now?

Let me put it another way; do you remember what happened last time we bought the whole "green energy/biofuel" bit?

I don't want to sound condescending or harsh or anything, but think about how this stuff works, boss. It's great that you're concerned and I hope you never lose your enthusiasm for this kind of stuff, but it isn't as easy as just saying "x should do y".

When you create a tax-based revenue source for something that seems like a good idea, there will be people looking to obtain some of that revenue. It won't be people like you or me,who are concerned but not involved, it will be established interests who are in the best position to take advantage. Naturally their interest is not in actually making the thing work, but in the bottom line. When you give them handouts you're actually impeding technological development buy giving industry an easy out. Why develop an effective biofuel or other energy source when the state will give you a handout for making corn-ethanol? Why pay for expensive R&D when the state will do the work for you? Why try to give people what they want and will pay for when you can easily co-opt an agency that will simply take their money? Where's the incentive? Perversely enough, that's how it usually works.


Again, I would like for you to really think about this. It wasn't just California who deregulated energy, it was everyone, and not everyone had such severe or lasting problems. California didn't have an energy crisis because its energy industry was different or worse. It didn't have less access to resources. The only thing that set it apart was that, unlike most states, it tried to retain control. The measures implemented by people who listened to people like you actually messed things up more than they helped. Ask McBee, this is one of his personal bugbears. :DL

That's one of the reasons I am now a Recovering Republican. :D

As a point of information, demonstrate that the war is even "one of" the most expensive in history.

Raw dollars is not an acceptable answer. % of GDP per year would be best.

WW2 was around 15.5% of US GDP (239% of federal expenditures—deficit to pay for it, basically).

Viet Nam was 1.8% of GDP (36.7% of fed expenses)

Iraq? 1.1% of GDP (18.3% of fed expenses) (as of 2007) That had 450B, and the new total is over 700B. Even doubled it's not the most expensive, however. Not even close to WW2 in constant dollars. It's in fact not even close in actual dollars. (ww2 cost the US 288B, which is 3.6 trillion in 2010 dollars)

EDIT: if you divide 700 B$ by 7 years (2003-2010), you get 100B$ a year. (you need to make sure that you only count costs above and beyond the normal expenditure of the military) That's about 0.71% of annual GDP. Total annual US tax revenues are typically on the order of 20% of GDP.

Answer Tater then explain how spending less money would not increase our casualty rate. Doesn't sound to responsible to me, fiscally or otherwise.

Oh c'mon, Stone Age? Seems to me we managed fairly well before the age of oil without resorting to living in caves.

Funny how it'ts just a billion here, a billion there, a tenth of a percentage point of GDP when it comes to war - but try proposing even a fraction of that being spent on domestic stimulus or healthcare, and all of a sudden it's Tea Party time and tyranny and Nazi Germany and cause to march in the streets with guns slung over your shoulder.

Please. Exaggeration is the mark of a weak argument.

Given that statement, I think we can then agree that the Tea party is built upon exaggeration and hypocrisy.

Right and your parties experiment in Socialism will only cost us one billion isn't an exaggeration and your support of everything they do regardless of it's stupidity isn't hypocritical.

Straying away from the original debate is the mark of a weak argument. The Tea Party is completely hypocritical in the way they defend the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but yet condemn any sort of domestic spending.

Agreed! I'd like to see us try to spend 50% of our discretionary budget on Social programs Instead of defense. The right would have a cow!

Oh by the way. here's the Discretionary budget for 2008!
http://emergent-culture.com/wp-conte...mic-budget.jpg


And here's what those evil former nazi's spent in 2005...surely obama wants to be just like hitler!! Funny how we throw around that word....but the country who started nazism has become more progressive in the last 70 years than the USA!

http://photos14.flickr.com/19838818_1fbcf9ab5c.jpg

and I wonder why their economy is booming? maybe it's because they spend the People's money on that it should be spent on: The people!

Yeah and outright making up things is the sign of a failed argument. The Tea Party does not have an official position on anything besides run away government spending, so quit trying to cast them as some regular multi plank political party.

Over 2/3 of total federal spending is on social programs already.

46% of healthcare in the US was already delivered with the US government as the payee, and to a large degree this continues to be the problem since medicare and medicaid both reimburse BELOW COST in many cases. As a result, private insurance MUST increase to cover the negative income.

Adding new entitlements when we cannot afford the ones already on the books is insanity.

My "tea-party" like solution would be to freeze spending at a few % above 2007 for 5-10 years. In addition, I'd phase the retirement age older. Say in 3 years it goes from 65 to 66, in 5 years from 66 to 67, in 7 from 67 to 68 and so forth until it reaches whatever 65 was in terms of life expectancy when SS was first passed or the average lifespan, whichever is lower.

Retirement is not a right, the whole point for pushing retirement was in fact to screw skilled workers in favor of the young.

65 YO workers are at top pay scales, so dump them out of the workplace and hire 2 young guys for the same money—and the 65YO doesn't get counted as "unemployed" which makes the numbers look better. SS should be what it was supposed to be, a safety net. Medicare should also go up the same way.

Medicaid should be a write-off for providers.

The only problem with that idea is back when SS was first passed it was given to people who had never contributed to it. I've been paying SS taxes forever. Money I'd much rather have kept and invested myself.

Now I wouldn't be very happy if my government tried such a Yossarian trick on me.

Stone age? Ahem, I don't think our nation started in the stone age. not one bit.

Maybe not but I certainly have the right to every dime I was forced to put towards it over the past 40 years, plus interest. So pay up.