Any tank sims that let you play a Panther?
 

I was hoping that there might be mods available that add a playable Panther out there.

Is there anything like that?

Thanks,
G

Panther
 

Unfortunately Gian right now the only tank sim which allows you to use the Panther is Panzer Elite.There´s one POanther mod in Steel Fury but it´s not easily available because of copy rights issues( the model was borrowed from >Red Orchestra withotu permisison).I have it but it´s only one mission so far.But in the near future it will be coming.

As for TvsT ZeeWolf who created the just released Kursk mod has nice panthers but currently there´s no playable only AI.In the near future though he promises to make them playable.So you may want to join his release.Check the Kursk threads for more details.

I uunderstand your quest as the Panther is my favoiurite tank much more than the TIgers I or II.

Checks ZeeWolf´s website re the Kursk release as well.It´s spectacular.Don´t miss the boat,

Cheers

frinik

Red Orchastra has a polular mod called Darkest Hour (more popular than the original game in fact). Has every tank and tank destroyer you can think of, Panther A, and Panther G included.

RO
 

Red Orchestra is primarily a Multi Player game though.Very limited SP-wise and I read that the AI is dumb enough to make you cry....

frinik wrote:
Actually, frinik, I'd call that a benefit rather than a detriment.

In fact, the single worst thing you can say about SFK42 is that it has no multi-player component. :down:

Boxed scenarios are almost always inferior to the potential of online action, because AI, no matter how well designed cannot substitute for human cunning. Now, it can definitely be said that poorly designed online servers can make that mode of play just as "stupid" as bad AI in a "boxed" scenario... but most online titles at least provide the basic tools for a much better environment. After that, I'd say that developers need to guide users much better in realiziing that potential, since without good direction, the hosts of online servers don't do a very good job of creatiing historical scenarios.

Now... back to the original request for Panthers....


Why is it that, when it comes to armor, everyone seems to gravitate to the biggest late-war monsters, and there seems to be almost no interest at all in the models that, while much less well-armored and with much less effective guns, still did the heavy liftiing through much of the war?

With the ability to stand off at 2.5km and plink nearly everything... and armor thick enough to resist a nuke :) , how much are you really going to learn about armored tactics in these behemoths?

I think it would be much more interesting to have to cut one's teeth in a Skoda, or a PzII infantry support, or suffer the anguish of an early British tank with a measly two-pounder... and move through the sublime PzIVs with long and short barrels... experience the pros and cons of the Sherman tank....

Doesn't anyone like a challenge? Why always go directly for the ueber-example of every tank or aircraft?

Excellent point Stiglr :hmmm:

ZeeWolf

Big is Beautiful !
 

Stiglir, the yearning for something better, stronger or faster is basic human nature. I'd rather personally drive a Panther that can prevail on the battlefield than feel the anguish of a Panzer IIC driver in his lightly armoured coffin. It's not the matter of wanting an Ueber anything to satisfy my ego it's plain simple logic and the survival instinct.Light tanks are cute and can be useful against lightly armed infantry and machine gun nests but let's face it they can be blown up by anything bigger than a 20 mm gun or by a grenade.Than tank was designed with the idea of gaining battlefield supremacy not for crews to experience angst or with the study of human phobias in mind...That being said I love the Panzer IVF2 and the T34 on the Soviet side was also quite good without beign a heavy hitter.

If you were give the choice or the money would you rather drive a VW Golf or a Porsche Cayenne?A Corolla or a Landcruiser?

I understand that some players are attracted to APCs or smaller tank models. It's their choice and their right.But I don't see anything wrong about wanting to play more powerful machines either.Actually, I much prefer the Panther to the Ueber panzer by excellence the Panzer VI Ausf. B (Tiger II or KingTiger) or to the Tiger I.Surviving swarms of incoming T34/85, KV1 and 2s, JS2s, at a ratio of 4 to 1 or more is enough of a challenge.

Anyway it's just a matter of what makes one tick....

Cheers

I myself like the German heavy tanks, I think they look best, out of all the tanks of the war. (even tho when it comes to tanks its not the looks that matter. lol)
Ive always wanted a WW2 tank sim with a dynamic campaign... maby someday.:hmmm:

Excellent point frinik :hmmm: And Task force there is one coming that has me
worked up :yep:

Cheers

ZW

Uncle Zee Wants You!
 

Task Force, ZeeWolf is beta testing his Kursk mod which promises a very exciting and challenging Tank sim campaign with may missions and eventually all Eastern Front major theatres/battles. Check the earlier threads or Master Zee Wolf's website for more details.There are 30 or more of us members of his club.Don't miss the boat and enrol!

Uncle Zee Wants you!

Cheers

Early-vs-Late-War Tanks
 

HI All,

I have been following this thread with interest and it brought to mind a few thoughts I had about armour-related computer games a while ago. The majority of WW II games seem to focus on Late-War European scenarios, such as Normandy, or the Battle of the Bulge. In that regard, I thought that Steel Fury-Kharkov 1942 was a refreshing change with its mid-war Eastern front focus, including many light and medium tanks. Don't get me wrong, I like the Panthers and Tigers just as much as the next guy. However, I would find it interesting to have a tank simulation, where the player (German side) starts the Polish campaign in 1939 in a Panzer I, France, 1940 and Africa, 1941 in a Panzer II, maybe a Panzer III for El Alamein. Then, the player could move on to the Eastern front, starting in a 38t, then moving on to a Panzer III for the Battle of Kursk. For the defence against the Soviet summer offensive of 1944 (Operation Bagration), the player could be in a Panzer IV with the long 75 mmm. Then, switch to the Western front: Normandy in the same Panzer IV, the Battle of the Bulge in a Panzer IV Ausf.H, then on to the Battle of Berlin, or the Ruhr-Kessel in a Panther.
It seems to me that, especially in the English-speaking world, there is almost an obsession with the mystique of the Tiger tanks. Every Western-Front game has to have its Tigers, it seems. However, there were only relatively few of them built and deployed, while the real work horses of German armour were the Panzer III and Panzer IV, the latter right up to the end of the war. Perhaps, computer games could reflect that. I do appreciate the efforts of game developers and modders to give us various playable Tiger models. I just feel that there is almost an over-emphasis on those, while medium tanks like the Panzer III, Panzer IV and Panther get overlooked and under-appreciated.
Just my two cents.

Cheers,

FW

Late War/Early War
 

All points of view are valid( I am such a glib fence-sitter I ought to be an politician...:DL)

I think the over emphasis of late Western European battle theatres in tanksims or games is simply a matter of marketing logic. Most US/UK and a majority of Western European clients/players are more interested in these 1944-1945 events than more obscure ones in Poland 1939, France 1940 or those on the East Front.one big reason is Hollywood which has glorified American and to a lesser extent British war exploits ( either real , imaginary(U571) or exaggerated) from 1943 onward. How many American and British war films made since 1945 take place before 1943?20% at the most.Most or 80% take place either on D Day/Normandy, during the Battle of the Bulge, Germany 1945(Remagen or the air bombings over Germany), in Italy 1944( Anzio), or in the case of British films in North Africa from 1941-1943, air raids or about British SAS or spies in occupied Europe in 1944).The same with documentaries on TV or best selling books. How many war films have you seen with an Eastern European or pre 1943 Western European slant?I am not talking about films dealing with the Holocaust or special themes like that. Just plain war movies. The truth is a handful... As a result if it were not for Russian or Ukrainian game developpers nobody would make games like Steel Fury or TvsT because major distributors who often happen to be AngloSaxon simply don't go for that.The one that took on these 2 tanksims; Dutch-based Lighthouse went belly up last year.

You can divide the titles by nationalities. Those dealing with the East Front are either from the former Soviet Union, Germany/Austria or Central Europe. Those dealing with the 1944/45 Western European campaign are mostly US or UK or West European based.

It's a matter of what wants in game. Sheer action, battles,firefights with raw firepower and optimum armour or more tactical, experimental approach focussing on variety and experiencing various phases and types of armour. I personally and unabashedly much prefer the first one without looking down on the second approach.

The Tiger is truly a remarkable example of how good propaganda( by the Germans) was turned into good marketing( by American game makers and marketers) to sell games/books, films.

But again it all comes down to raw power; would you rather drive a Ferrari or a Corolla( with brake and gas pedals working of course)?:smug:


Cheerio

I suppose my answer to frinik would be, "Doesn't anyone relish a challenge?"

I see this facet in flight sims all the time, and it's just as frustrating there, too. People want to fly the late war ueberplanes before learning fascinating lessons and cutting their teeth in the less capable machines that came before them.

In the flight sim world, it's best encapsulated by the big interest in "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" planes: everybody wants a Me263 Komet or some drawing board wonder, when there's a lot to be learned from flying a FW190A or a Bf109E/F or a /G that doesn't have a 30mm nose gun and underwing pylons.

I don't so much mind the Tigers and Panthers being available as part of the overall experience... I'm just making a point about the "gottawin" mentality that drives players to immediately gravitate to the uebers, and stunting their own development and learning (not to mention, gaining more of an appreciation for why it was nice to drive a Tiger after surviving in a III or a IV for a long time).

It's not too hard to figure out that, if you never have to take a thin(ner) skinned PzIII with a short-barreled gun into combat, you don't have to learn how to survive a battle where you have to maneuver to within 500 meters and create a side- or rear-aspect shot for yourself; no, all you have to do is back into a corner that protects your rear, pick out the binoculars and find targets at 2km away for your 88 to have a go at.

Said another way, "gottawin" is also human nature.

Friedrich-Wilhelm wrote:
As was IL-2 Sturmovik, which began its illustrious career with no American planes save for a P-39!!! But the sim was seen as one of high quality, so it sold a lot of boxes before it was expanded to an "anglo-american marketable" planeset.

Of course, the gottawin mentality is prevalent in that game, too, as seen when you go onto HyperLobby. Most of the action is late-war leaning, even though the IL-2 planeset pretty much covers every significant aircraft throughout the entire war. At that point, it becomes the fault of the developer, IMO, for not building enough structure into the sim to GUIDE and EDUCATE the player a bit more.

For example, anyone can build a wonderful historic IL-2 server or scenario: all the tools and the planes are there. But, if no guidance is given, then ignorant players (not stupid, but ignorant in the "not knowing better" sense) will naturally write predictable scenarios involving their favorite ueberplanes.... or they are too lazy to even bother creating good match-ups, they just offer "the whole planeset" which naturally favors the later war planes; the early planes can't be competitive or survive in a server where everyone ELSE will be flying -44 or -45 crates.

Education vs Fun
 

Stiglr

It all depends of what you are looking for in a game or in life in general. Some like the experiencing and othersd ar focussed on results. I guess it's an example of people being divided between Type A; competitive, aggressive, result oriented and Type B more placid. contemplative, interested in the discovery more than in the accomplishments and then you have the AB type( I am one) a mixture of the 2;competitive and goal oriented at times but also interested in discovering and experiencing different things.

As much as I like the Panzer IVF2 and do not disdain the Panzer III J and L, I 'd rather fight in a Panther because it has the right balance that the lighter( weak armour) and heavier tanks(lack of mobility) do not have either.

Nevertheless, The Ueber Panzers have also their downside often mechanically more prone to breakdowns, slower, more visible targets.

Thhis is why I like Steel Fury because with all the mods now you can experience a variety of tanks from the Skdf 232, 451 , the Panzer Jaeger I,to the Panzer II C ,various versions of the the Panzer III, the Pz IVF1,F2, the Stug III C, D and G, the Hetzer and then the biggies Tiger I and II and the Panther with more models to come the Brumbaer, the Wespe, the Elefant etc and on the Soviet side the BT5 and 10, the T38, T26, T60, the Mark II(Mathilda) and III, the T34/76 , T34/85, The Js2, KV1 and 2 with the ISU 152, KV84 and the SU 76, 85 and 100 coming.

Panzer Elite , although showing its age, allows to play even more variety of tanks including UK ,US , Italian and French tanks.

Re IL2 I beg to disagree with you.You can survive with a Bf 109 and a Spitfire even against latest models.Some early war models remained competitive( with upgrade admittedly) till the end of the war.

I think you also being a tad judgemental and paternalistic when you ascribe ignorance to players who want to move on to more advanced or sophisticated models whether armour or aircrafts.Just because you don't like it and won't do it yourself does not mean that others who do it are ignorant or don't know better. We buy and play games because we want to have fun or be entertained after all.It the games are going to be tailored to be educative and force players to adhere to strict principles that purists want them to follow then where's the pleasure?Not everybody wants to be educated by a game. If I want to be educated I play Scrabble or Strategy games.

Same with sports you can play it for the fun of it not sticking by strict rules or if you like you can play it by formal rules if it what you want.But you cannot force or judge people just because they don't fit your own personal code of conduct.I think you need to be a bit more flexible and let others be different in their approach.

End of lecture.

Cheers

I think that's exactly what Stiglr was trying to say right from the beginning.
I've played Warbirds and Aces High before moving to tanks. What they used to do on those servers back in those days is limit plane choice to certain plane era (ie spit1 vs 109e), on a russian freehost server, which is still in operation i think, they took a step further and made more planes of the same era available, so you'd get russian almost useless biplanes battling or trying to survive against 109e's. And for sure I found that those earlier models took a lot more skill and were actually more fun to play than the later '1 shot wonder' models. But I know it's all down to personal taste and I won't dispute that.
What I'm trying to say is that I totally understand what Stiglr is saying. Most people fly Spitfires because they offer the best average of firepower, maneuverability, speed, and forgiving physics. Personally, I would choose the hardest plane to fly and adapt my own style of flying. And that would take me to a different level of gameplay. Instead of just trying to outmaneuver and just turn'n'burn mindlessly, I'd have to stick to tactics which require far more discipline and patience. And it really paid off. Most people would just stick to relying on maneuverability and pure luck after burning all the energy, but you can almost guarantee yourself a perfect sortie if you'd stick to certain rules flying a less maneuverable plane. It just forces you to become better.
In Red Orchestra, there are certain maps you can play against limited amount of Tigers vs early T34s, which guns just wont penetrate that thick Tiger armor. So you'd have to drive so close to the Tiger trying to outmaneuver it in order to get behind Tiger's rear and make a quick shot hoping to hit it in the weak spot. And it's just such a rush you get when you can make a Tiger look so humiliated while desperately trying to shake T34s off its tail with its smaller rate of turn. And I think that's what Stiglr is trying to say: I don't think you really need to restructure everything, but it's certainly nice to give a limited choice for players in order to force them explore these options instead of going with angled IS2 vs Tigers at a long distance and shoot each other endlessly, at least that's what happens in RO.
:salute:

Hi guyz
I was a Armoured Corps Soldier for 16 years and was trained on the first computer gunnery aids as well live firing. For Squadron Gunnery Competition, we would fire HESH Prac [no explosive, just a great big bullet] at a 9volt battery with a globe on it, at night with no night vision aids, at 4,500 mts Yes thats a long way, with no aids, with what we called "steam gunnery" and yes we hit it.
Why do I tell you this ? simple I love a tank sim that makes me feel like I'm there, and before TvsT , I found games like Panzer Elite to be kids games ! amusing but that's it !
Having said that, I'm not sure why Panzer Front & Panzer Front Ausf.B gets such a bagging here, maybe because it's on Sony and not PC.
Ballistics, Gunnery and everything else is modeled into the game.
1st mission on PF AusfB is the 1st attack on France in Pz.IIc and if you don't look after your resup/repair veh your just not going to make it, after that your off to Africa with the first battles until 1941. Now this is an excellent game for those who like a challenge with realism. Turn it up the volume through your stereo and I defy anyone not to jump when you are immersed in the game and a round hits you ! Sure is hard to complete your missions in the early model tanks and once you have you can play them buy choosing tanks/anti tank guns/artillery and making it into a whole new game. The only modern tanks in this game, besides all the early models are M4 Sherman, Grant, Stuart, T34 1941, Pz.IV,F2 & Tiger E.
Panzer Front first came out on Sony 1 and the tank choices in it are immense,and for Stiglr, the PF 1on Sony 1, there is "Barkmans Corner" in Panther, you can also choose Panther A & D, I have these games and still play and love them, I bought them and have absolutely no trouble with them and text is all in English, or you can change it to German and some others which I often do just for fun. I also have Panzer Elite Gold and nearly every other so called tank sim for those who think I am bias.
This is just my opinion
The following thread does not do this game justice
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/hayl...allink_ltr.gif PANZERFRONT (Anyone Here Remember This One?)

Panzer front
 

Knightscross if you check the thread dedicated to Panzer front you´ll see that it does not get bagged on the contrary a lot of people loved it and still play it.I only have experience with Panzerfront Bis ausf. B which is in Japanese and with 7 missions to play.I found it ok but no more.Graphically nice but the ballistics and realism not so gtrreat but as I said it came out only in Japan and a friend game me the game so perhaps my experience is not the best.Panzer front I would have loved to have but it does not exist either on pc or ps2.

Cheers

As I said just my opinion :)
Both my Panzer Front & Panzer Front Ausf.B were released and bought in Australia, at an EB Games store, all in English, no Japanese to be seen in the manuals or on the cd's
All the Best
Darren