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-   -   battery recharge question:historic (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=161496)

brett25 02-07-10 09:06 PM
battery recharge question:historic
 
I noticed in SH3 that I am able to recharge the battery without moving the sub, as long as the engines are running and im in recharge mode. Does anyone know if this is historically correct? Did the uboats have a gear that disabled the propeller shaft allowing the engine to stiull spin the shaft to recharge the batteries withput having to be in motion?

Task Force 02-07-10 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brett25 (Post 1261363)
I noticed in SH3 that I am able to recharge the battery without moving the sub, as long as the engines are running and im in recharge mode. Does anyone know if this is historically correct? Did the uboats have a gear that disabled the propeller shaft allowing the engine to stiull spin the shaft to recharge the batteries withput having to be in motion?
I belive when U boats are rechargeing they use one engine to spin one prop and the other to recharge.:yep: so, i believe if the were stopped, they would have 1 engine rechagreing and running and the other stopped.

ryanglavin 02-07-10 09:34 PM
Task force is correct. they would also run extremely fuel efficient-like, by running 1 diesel through both electrics to run the boat. that was a solid 4 Kts.

brett25 02-08-10 02:23 PM
ok thanks that makes sense. do you know of any good books covering the engineering and mechanics off the uboat?

Jimbuna 02-08-10 04:05 PM
Recharging batteries whilst stationary is not realistic...but simply a glitch in the game that has not been addressed thus far.

ryanglavin 02-08-10 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brett25 (Post 1261899)
ok thanks that makes sense. do you know of any good books covering the engineering and mechanics off the uboat?
One book, a biography on Wolfgang Luth goes into detail about the IXD2. Clay Blairs' Books go into alot of detail, if you read both front to back, (done that 4 times here :yeah:)

brett25 02-08-10 08:31 PM
Quote:
Recharging batteries whilst stationary is not realistic...but simply a glitch in the game that has not been addressed thus far.
@jibuna , do you know if this was because the crew typically did not do that, or is it because its not possible mechanically speaking.

@ryanglavin thanks for those suggestions

Task Force 02-08-10 08:44 PM
I would think its mechaniacly possiable... running one engine while while not turning the prop shaft... Abit like a car in park I guess, its still rechargeing the battery by turning the alternator but isnt moveing the wheels...:hmmm:

ryanglavin 02-08-10 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Task Force (Post 1262220)
I would think its mechaniacly possiable... running one engine while while not turning the prop shaft... Abit like a car in park I guess, its still rechargeing the battery by turning the alternator but isnt moveing the wheels...:hmmm:
The thing is, that I learned from my research on a Honors Lit paper in 9th grade (I write alot about submarines), that the diesels were directly connected to the electric engines which were connected to the Propeller shafts. Keeping it stopped wouldn't work because you would need the diesel engine to power the electric engine to get it recharged... Unless you found a way to cut a line to the propellor shaft, and i don't think you would want to do that.

Jimbuna 02-09-10 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brett25 (Post 1262203)
@jibuna , do you know if this was because the crew typically did not do that, or is it because its not possible mechanically speaking.
See below....http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img144...ookherewd0.gif http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img144...ookherewd0.gif http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img144...ookherewd0.gif
http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img144...ookherewd0.gif http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img144...ookherewd0.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanglavin (Post 1262264)
The thing is, that I learned from my research on a Honors Lit paper in 9th grade (I write alot about submarines), that the diesels were directly connected to the electric engines which were connected to the Propeller shafts. Keeping it stopped wouldn't work because you would need the diesel engine to power the electric engine to get it recharged... Unless you found a way to cut a line to the propellor shaft, and i don't think you would want to do that.

Sailor Steve 02-09-10 11:27 AM
The problem I have with that is that it also means that you would never see one prop not turning while you recharged. If they disengaged one engine from the propellor shaft while recharging, then it follows that if one was recharging and the other shut down then you could indeed be sitting still while recharging (if you so chose).

Jimbuna 02-09-10 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Steve (Post 1262735)
The problem I have with that is that it also means that you would never see one prop not turning while you recharged. If they disengaged one engine from the propellor shaft while recharging, then it follows that if one was recharging and the other shut down then you could indeed be sitting still while recharging (if you so chose).
Sorry Steve but you've lost me here (might be experiencing one of my rare sober moments).

Do you mean the game should always show at least one prop turning?

brett25 02-09-10 06:46 PM
I found this manual covering recharging protocols: http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUOrder2.htm (this article needs some deciphering from some of you who can)

and this more general article which seems to indicate the boat needed to be in motion during a recharge: http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-work.shtml

Quote:
At greater depths, the U-boat is driven by electric motors using electricity drawn from giant internal batteries. When these are depleted, they must be recharged. This is done by traveling on the surface, or while snorkeling at periscope depth. The diesel engines are used to turn the electric motors so that they act as dynamos (generators) to recharge the depleted batteries. For rapid recharge, both diesel engines would be clutched onto the electric motors. For maximum range, one diesel engine would be clutched to an electric motor – which in turn acted as a generator to drive the other electric motor. Both propellers were turning in this way with only one diesel running.
here is a good article on uboat batteries: http://www.uboat.net/articles/id/54

Sailor Steve 02-09-10 07:07 PM
Well, I spent 20 minutes researching and typing a long post explaining what was just said above, including links to both u-boat sources and US sources (US boats had the diesels connected directly to generators, which provided electricity to either run the motors or to charge the batteries) only to find that I had been logged off by the system and the whole thing was lost.

Sometimes I hate this server.:damn::damn::damn::damn::damn:

Anyway, the US stuff is all here.
http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/elect/chap2.htm#2A

Jimbuna 02-10-10 08:08 AM
Which takes me back to my post @#5....the propellor would be moving which would mean the U-boat should not be stationary........but the game allows for recharging of the batteries to take place whilst the boat is at a standstill.

I think....not really sure anymore.....what was the original point again? http://www.psionguild.org/forums/ima...lies/wacko.gif

ryanglavin 02-10-10 09:47 AM
Hey jim, where'd you get the hands?

Leandros 02-10-10 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbuna (Post 1263426)
Which takes me back to my post @#5....the propellor would be moving which would mean the U-boat should not be stationary........but the game allows for recharging of the batteries to take place whilst the boat is at a standstill.

I think....not really sure anymore.....what was the original point again? http://www.psionguild.org/forums/ima...lies/wacko.gif
I've read the articles of the links above and one thing I wasn't aware of became clear to me. The diesels are not connected to the propeller shafts, but driving them through the electric engines. That's fine. I was a little surprised, though, as this means that there would be no propulsion, not even on the surface, if the e-engines were damaged. I suppose this was done to save space and weight.

OTH, it doesn't seem clear to me whether the propeller shaft/propellers could be disconnected from the engines or not. A gearbox. Or maybe adjustable propeller pitch. To me it sounds unlikely that batteries couldn't be charged while lying still. Since the e-engines themselves were the battery charging generators, driven by the diesels, the axles would then swirl while charging. This would also take up/diminish energy for the actual charging. And the boat would move.

Can anyone point specifically to a source which says this.

ryanglavin 02-10-10 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leandros (Post 1263520)
I've read the articles of the links above and one thing I wasn't aware of became clear to me. The diesels are not connected to the propeller shafts, but driving them through the electric engines. That's fine. I was a little surprised, though, as this means that there would be no propulsion, not even on the surface, if the e-engines were damaged. I suppose this was done to save space and weight.

OTH, it doesn't seem clear to me whether the propeller shaft/propellers could be disconnected from the engines or not. A gearbox. Or maybe adjustable propeller pitch. To me it sounds unlikely that batteries couldn't be charged while lying still. Since the e-engines themselves were the battery charging generators, driven by the diesels, the axles would then swirl while charging. This would also take up/diminish energy for the actual charging. And the boat would move.

Can anyone piont specifically to a source which says this.
I usually get all my information from Clay Blair's books.
He usually has facts about how the boats worked.
I was also reading in a book that U.s. Submarines had a giant cable leading out of the batteries, and If you touched it, you would literally be incinerated in under 0.1 seconds because of voltage. If that got messed up, you probably couldn't even move the boat. If a loose screw got into the cage that the cable was housed, you would probably not be able to move the boat either.

Sailor Steve 02-10-10 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbuna (Post 1263426)
Which takes me back to my post @#5....the propellor would be moving which would mean the U-boat should not be stationary........but the game allows for recharging of the batteries to take place whilst the boat is at a standstill.

I think....not really sure anymore.....what was the original point again? http://www.psionguild.org/forums/ima...lies/wacko.gif
Why would the propellor be moving? In the u-boats the diesel is clutched either to the generator or to the propellor shaft, not to both. The engine that is doing the charging is not driving the boat, so if they are both charging or if the non-charging one is shut down, the boat won't move.

Jimbuna 02-10-10 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Steve (Post 1263610)
Why would the propellor be moving? In the u-boats the diesel is clutched either to the generator or to the propellor shaft, not to both. The engine that is doing the charging is not driving the boat, so if they are both charging or if the non-charging one is shut down, the boat won't move.
I simply cannot imagine the momentum of travel being sacrificed....why not utilise the momentum to travel toward some intended destination.

The only scenario I can imagine would be if you were lying in wait along an expected convoy route, but even then wouldn't you be submerged to maximise your 'listening' means via the hydrophones.

I'd be interested in learning of an account where a boat simply 'hovered' on the surface whilst charging the batteries.

I just can't imagine this happening in RL.

Not saying it never happened, but would like to know of it :hmmm:


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