a story of patriotism...
 

...or rather quite the opposite

yesterday my dad, 64 and heart patient, was brutally arrested and, with only few clothes on him, literally thrown into an ice-cold cell. This all because of one terrible crime...
...he raised the Dutch flag while on the visitors bench in a city council's meeting.

The city counsil was discussing a plan for placing a giant mosque in our neighbourhood. To be the biggest mosque in all the province. Room for 500 mosque-goers, from all over the country, and that while there's already much too less room to park all residents cars, let alone a few hundred more. Not to mention the minarettes and the loud calling for prayers.
Needless to say pretty much all the neighbourhood was against those plans, and a large number of us went to the city council's meeting to protest, and at least see what the outcome would be.
There, my dad put the Dutch flag on his walking stick, and raised it. He was immediately summoned to lower our national flag, which he refused. Within a matter of minutes EIGHT police officers (bit overdone, 8 VS one 64 year old man with bad health:shifty:) stormed the buiding and dragged my dad straight out, under loud protest of all present.
Luckily eventually the counsil decided against the mosque after all.

Now compare this with the US, rarely do I see any pic without the US flag showing up someplace.

What in the devils name will become of this country if we can't even raise our national flag anymore?!:damn:

(PS sorry for this rant:oops: but I just want to remind you that how overexaggerated it might look at times, you US citizens should be lucky to still be allowed a little patriotism:up:)

Boy and I thought only us Germans have a problem with that.:damn:

I am not familiar with the laws there. If what he did was against the law, he should not have done it. Breaking the law, regardless of good intentions, can not be allowed.

Did your father know that what he was intending on doing was illegal?

If so it is sad that your father choose to break the law (if it was, in fact illegal). Especially since he broke the law for no effect (the council voted against the motion anyway). Perhaps he should have waited until the council voted before choosing to break the law?

I hope your father is OK, but if he did in fact break the law, I don't have a lot of sympathy. People can't break the law and expect to escape responsibility due to their age or their good intentions.

In that case, the police were only doing their jobs, but I find your blind respect for the law un-nerving. Will you have said the same thing if those cops shot the father?

Law is supposed to be a formalized generalization of ethics rather than arbitrary, and this here looks to me like a victimless crime (crime as defined legally only). If there is indeed a law of this sort, it is the law that is at fault.

well that's the problem, it isn't illegal.
Point is, you can raise the Turkish, Maroccan or Southeast-Blablawaysian flag and nobody cares. But once you raise the Dutch flag all officials jump up and accuse you of racism, disturbing the peace and all that's bad:damn:

(BTW disturbing the peace is what my dad is charged with)

luckily there isn't:) there's only our government and police overreacting against racism where there isn't any:shifty:

Sounds to me like excessive force :hmmm:

Boneheads (read: Neonazis) are pretty strong in numbers even in the Netherlands, let alone places further east. Would have looked pretty strange if only one cop had tried to do it and then gotten surrounded by several neonazis from the crowd.

Well that is a different story. In your original post, you gave me the impression your father was arrested simply for raising the flag. Now it appears that your father was arrested for disturbing the peace, which I assume is more than just waiving a piece of cloth.

Did your father resist the officers, or did he make a disturbance other than raising the flag?

I have a feeling there is more to this story than you originally posted. :shifty:

It will be interesting to see what the judge has to say about this case.

By my nature I am a law-follower. If something is against the law, I generally don't do it. When I drive, The Frau hates this attitude when it comes to speed limits. :|\\

On those rare occasions where I choose to break the law, I am fully prepared to accept the consequences. That is really my gripe -- people choosing to break the law and then complaining when consequences are levied against them. That is hypocrisy.

I am for the right for people to engage in "civil disobedience" if they feel the issue calls for it (I never do however), but when they are caught, I don't have a lot of sympathy.

I believe there is a song about doing crimes and doing times.

Consider the state of society if everyone thought they could break laws and not be held responsible simply because they felt it was socially justified? The term anarchy comes to mind.

nope, all he did was raising our flag and refusing to lower it when asked. It isn't illegal to raise the Dutch flag ANYWHERE so they shouldn't even have asked him.
He did resist the officers, but only after he was arrested and cuffed. Most of the 'disturbance' was done by the other people protesting against him being arrested.
I don't know about the US, but here, disturbing the peace is a generic reason the police uses to arrest anyone the government doesn't like (=any patriotism, because of the Dutch racismophobia)
Hah you don't know my dad:)
My dad is of the kind that, if he saw you speeding, would jump in front of you car, stop you and give you a lengthy preach about how you shouldn't break the law.
(in fact, he's done such things on occasion. Foolish as that might be, it shows how he respects the law)

Not a good idea to resist officers of the law. That is too bad. The raising of the flag would probably be thrown out of court (since you are saying it is not illegal). But the resisting of the officers, might not.

The time to resist a law officer is in court and you don't do it physically.

I have been arrested twice in my life. Both times I was "Mr. Cooperative" Both times the charges were dropped (I did not do anything illegal) and both times the officers thanked me for not making a fuss.

Anyway, I hope your father will be OK. Perhaps the resisting/disturbing charges will be dropped. Let's hope your father learned his lesson. :yep:

First of all - I salute your father. :salute:

He stood up for something he believed in - though I do have to say his CHOICE in HOW he did it did push some boundaries, freedom has never been cheap.

Political correctness will kill us if we allow it. At least some are still willing to say enough is enough!

thanks:)
that's another difference between the US and here, in the Netherlands resisting officers of law is seen as much less severe as in the US. That's why he isn't charged with that.
Anyway, he's free again, if they haven't got a good reason to hold you they must release you after 20 hours, which is exactly what happened.
That is why I think the charges will be dropped eventually, if they had any good reason to hold him they would have done so.
It's not that I'm afraid he'll be prosecuted - instead I'm rather outraged you can get arrested for something simple like waving a flag in a civilized country like the Netherlands.

I don't think he learned his lesson however. I know him too well for that:cool:

I don't see why a Dutch flag is supposed to be a sign of protest against building a mosque.

Hope your father's alright.

I respect your father for standing up for what he believes in.

That said, I think it is naive and overdramatic to say he was arrested for "showing a little patriotism". He was obviously arrested for participating in disorderly conduct in a town meeting. Whether he was waving a flag or a soiled pair of boxers the result would have been the same, the flag is irrelevant.

Well, a city council meeting is not a place like the Muppets show, I would assume, where visitors occupy the balcony seats and can heckle the performances like Statler & Waldorf do and e.g. insult “Fozzie Bear”, the dubiously talented but irrepressible stand-up comic bear, aka the council member you voted into the office, because of the bad jokes he makes.

Could it be that your father pulled a Statler & Waldorf stunt?

Jaja. Another bad example of how Europe gets destroyed. Another example in a long list of example that does not stop.

I'm currently reading a good, a very good book, "Kritik der reinen Toleranz", which is nothing but a fully loaded broadside against the Political Correctness brigade. It is polemic in tone, but is loaded from top to bottom with materiual and examples illustrating how our societies get destroyed by home-made insanity and determination to be weak and meaningless. The argument and the sharp thinking behind the aggressive polemic tone shows that the polemic is not serving a self-purpose to earn some laughter, but ist just this: a desperate attempt to get heared in this European cacophony of insanity and madman's yelling. Reason, and better argument, even the obvious example itself - in today's discussion will not get listend to anymore.

For readers in German langauge, highly recommended. But you will not make yourself any friends by showing the cover anywhere.

Hope your Dad is well, and tell him he should spit out and hold his head up high when he is released.

http://www.amazon.de/Kritik-reinen-T...4892424&sr=8-1

On the issue of islam and more mosques - instead of the Saudi money these mosques will cost being invested into integration efforts for Muhammeddans and projects to educate their criminal and asocial youth population - I must not say anything anymore. You all know how much I despise Islam, and Islamic migration to europe.

Opening speech of Geert Wilder's trial over banning free speech and independent thinking in Holland:

Quote:

Mister Speaker, judges of the court, I would like to make use of my right to speak for a few minutes. Freedom is the most precious of all our attainments and the most vulnerable. People have devoted their lives to it and given their lives for it. Our freedom in this country is the outcome of centuries. It is the consequence of a history that knows no equal and has brought us to where we are now. I believe with all my heart and soul that the freedom in the Netherlands is threatened. That what our heritage is, what generations could only dream about, that this freedom is no longer a given, no longer self-evident. I devote my life to the defence of our freedom. I know what the risks are and I pay a price for it every day. I do not complain about it; it is my own decision. I see that as my duty and it is why I am standing here. I know that the words I use are sometimes harsh, but they are never rash. It is not my intention to spare the ideology of conquest and destruction, but I am not any more out to offend people. I have nothing against Muslims. I have a problem with Islam and the Islamization of our country because Islam is at odds with freedom. Future generations will wonder to themselves how we in 2010, in this place, in this room, earned our most precious attainment. Whether there is freedom in this debate for both parties and thus also for the critics of Islam, or that only one side of the discussion may be heard in the Netherlands? Whether freedom of speech in the Netherlands applies to everyone or only to a few? The answer to this is at once the answer to the question whether freedom still has a home in this country. Freedom was never the property of a small group, but was always the heritage of us all. We are all blessed by it. Lady Justice wears a blindfold, but she has splendid hearing. I hope that she hears the following sentences, loud and clear: It is not only a right, but also the duty of free people to speak against every ideology that threatens freedom. Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States was right: The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. I hope that the freedom of speech shall triumph in this trial. In conclusion, Mister Speaker, judges of the court. This trial is obviously about the freedom of speech. But this trial is also about the process of establishing the truth. Are the statements that I have made and the comparisons that I have taken, as cited in the summons, true? If something is true then can it still be punishable? This is why I urge you to not only submit to my request to hear witnesses and experts on the subject of freedom of speech. But I ask you explicitly to honour my request to hear witnesses and experts on the subject of Islam. I refer not only to Mister Jansen and Mister Admiraal, but also to the witness/experts from Israel, the United States, and the United Kingdom. Without these witnesses, I cannot defend myself properly and, in my opinion, this would not be an fair trial.

But today, defending freedom and free speech, criticising islam, standing up for europe's own grown, historical cultural identity and values, earns you a label of being "right-winged", a "hate-criminal", an "islamophobe", "intolerant" (my favourite!) .

The wiser head gives in, they say. That's the reason why the stupid and ignorrant rule the world today.

To raise one's own national flag, in one's own country is neo-nazi?!

Are you for real?

I think that is abit overboard for a old man... Seriously, one guy escorting him out would be good enough...

Is it just me, or have I heard of alot of mosque being built over there...